What human rights legacy for the Beijing Olympic Games?

Should peaceful protests be banned?

The Chinese authorities allow some peaceful protests to go ahead but ban others, and persecute their organizers.

For example, in 2004, Ye Guozhu applied for official permission to hold a demonstration against forced evictions. He was detained three days later, and sentenced to four years’ imprisonment. Yet people were free to organize anti-French protests outside Carrefour supermarkets in major cities in China.

What is your view on peaceful protests: are there situations in which it is justified to ban them or should they always be allowed?

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To paraphrase comedian Lenny Bruce: the powers that be need people who speak their mind to tell them when they’re blowing it. Peaceful protests should always be allowed.
It seems both issues mentioned (forced evictions connected with the olympic games & a “French” supermarket chain in China) have to do with BOTH how people are governed AND business interests. It’s safer to let people demonstrate about an issue where the apparent “bad guy” is NOT their own government.
I’d go as far as claiming that demonstrations are better tolerated in the “west” because they have less direct results, as with anti-war demos in the UK. A cynical viewpoint could be that if the Chinese government played it smart, they should allow some dissent in controlled to allow people let out just enough steam.
 

As Whalebone pointed out, behind every arrest ánd every (silent) consent there is a strategic reasoning.
Another reason why the Chinese government is not always allowing peaceful protests may be because they know that they can’t response adequately on their demands.. In my point of view, this is definitely not a valid argument to put down a peaceful protest. Moreover, what can be a valid argument in a democracy? This is a rather comprehensive question. Chinese democracy might be different from the one we know, but does that mean that addressing concerns on a peaceful way is something that can be classified under characteristics rather than being the foundation?

There are thousands of protests in China each year - some peaceful some violent. In the last couple of weeks there were two massive protests that made the news - both turning violent. I think Whalebone and Adrianne’s point about effectiveness and response are interesting. Protests can turn violent for many reasons - I have been at several myself in a number of countries. The violence can stem from a lack of adequate mechanisms for getting justice [or what ever you are asking for] - if this is the norm then protests will more often turn violent. As such the police [and the authorities] will try to stop them before they happen [never knowing which would have been violent and which would not]. This forms a vicious circle. Equally, it can be how they are policed. The Chinese government recognizes that it has to respond better to peoples complaints - particularly over corruption. Because if it doesn’t it undermines it legitimacy. 

there is no denying that certain protests have a tendency to turn violent, however, that is no reason to ban them altogether. without substantial proof that a certain protest will do harm to either life or property, i see no reason why people in a democracy should not be allowed to express their views. the constitution provides for freedom of speech and expression, and in a country like china, with its long and great history, why should such provisions be ignored?
i wonder to what extent we can still call any country a democracy if it doesn’t provide for basic freedoms, not only china.

falun gong held a peaceful silent non disruptive protest in 1999,
the result!!!
9 years of brutal insidious persecution of the worst kind!!!
”change must come from within, but appeasement doesnt acheive it”.

It is all justifiy bans as long as it involves with any relations in trying to change or destablize the govt in china’s.  Call it national security like here in the US.  If anything, it just as worst in all the so call free nations in this world. 

China must realise that this repression canot be allowed to continue

peaceful demonstration……the demonstration in 1989 led to a catastrophe and a nation-scale social disorder for the chinese government which had to resort to force in the end. the demonstrated was in general pro-democracy but it required too much changes and social upheaval that the government could accept, such as letting key figures in the government to step down and so on.  I’m afraid that doesn’t work in any democracy, let alone given China’s legacy of party rulership. So nowadays the government is very very keen on allow any demonstrations that has its object and effect of undermining its party rulership. I don’t think this ban will last very long, given that future generations have absorbed much western thinking from their communications with the world.

I think it is very simple. The communist took control after the war,  they founght off colonial powers and free and united china. Those who fought were then rewarded with nice government jobs. The government ruled the country thereafter along the same Guerilla techniquies and tactics used to fight the civil wars. over time these same geurillas and their family and friends and corrupt officals continue to use whatever means they can to make money and stay in power, at the expense of the general population.  furthermore that population is so brainwashed the nearly every PRC you talk to can justify torture, baby killing, and with the same old excuses. . The PRC government behaviour running up to the Olypics is no suprise,  its a big propoganda tool to keep the currect cronies in power for another 50 years.  And I don’t think the PRC governmanet will last another 50 years, so these top officials are just makeing the most of it.  God help their grandchildren….

China supported the Khmer Rouge, a genocidal regime, they now back the Sudan as that country pursues genocide. This from a people who display a huge portrait of Mao-tse-tung, who murdered 60 million of his own, their own people.
Now, soon, the Chinese are hosting the ‘08 Olympic’s.
A world who displays so much apathy, so much lack of respect for history, deserves everything it get’s.

I may not know much about anything being that I am only in high school but I can still clearly tell that everything the China government is doing is wrong. These people have a right to express themselves and their culture and China should be proud of them not upset. Demolishing their culture is not going to make China more “modern” or up to speed with North America… It will just ruin the unity of their people and how the rest of the world sees China. The Olympics are supposed to bring the world closer together so we can be one. Instead they are tearing a country apart. Being Canadian, I know for certain, is not all about technology or the clothe you were it is how you treat others and how you respect their religions and cultures; it is showing that you are proud of your country and telling people all about what your family does to celebrate their religion: it’s about loving and trying your best to help those who are less fortunate. If the Chinese government wants to be more like us they should… but not in the way they think

Hello andyjc,

Please do not ever regard Chinese people as “brainwashed”. We come here to freely exhange our ideas, with the notion that every people should at least maintain their basic respect to others. We may disagree with each other; but who has given you the right to judge others as “brainwashed”?

Enter your comment here
Ting’s comments are so typical of so many blind and racist defenders of the Chinese government. When will they learn that Chinese people, ALL Chinese people and NOT just those who back the government is what makes up China. To call the Chinese government “communist” is a misnomer. It is a fascist government and this fascism has manifested when China was ruled by monarchs, nationalists, maoists, communists and now the marketplace. Freedom of speech and demonstration is only free if any message can be expressed, not just those tolerated by the Chinese government or by those like Ting.

hi wahaha, I agree, chinese people are not brainwashed, but sadly,there is a fear of speaking out. well founded in the threat of retribution from ccp.
China needs some leaders like Gorbachev who had the courage to change direction in Russia, even though his successors have disappointed.

no peaceful protests shouldn’t be banned. people should have the right to express themselves, their dissent through peaceful protests. that should be a fundamental right of every individual, even in china!

I believe peaceful and legal demonstration shall be promoted, but illegal ones and riots can NOT be tolerated. Unfortunately the Chinese government seems to be too lenient with the latter. Very often you will read on the news about violent Chinese demonstrators attack the police or burn the police car/police station.  Try that in US and you will see what would happen –shoot to dealth on the spot. There are a lot the Chinese government need to learn from the US on better law enforcement.

tibetvideos seems hung up on ALLTHINGS US.
here’s a little insight for you, we don’t all base our moral code on that of the US REGIME.
my guess is you have little genuine interest in human rights in China, & that would give you a lot in common with CCP.

TibetVideos: Which demonstration or riot are you speaking of where people were shot to death in the United States? Was the man standing in front of the tank at Tianmen Square a physical threat to the tank or anyone in law enforcement or the military? I think not.

Why Amesty do not condem Tibetan violent protest ?

Most Chinese prefer authoritarian goverment then a weak government.

As Benjamin Franklin is quoted to have said, “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” I have no doubt in my mind that the Chinese people will gain more liberty in the long run. The Chinese government must learn that more liberty will lead to even greater prosperity and security for all. It will take time and perhaps it will take another government but it will happen, I am sure. Remember, no oppressive system has ever survived in history and no false legacy can be covered forever by lies and deception. People know and people’s power should never be underestimated.

mirabelle:
in a perfect world, we could say that all the people in china make up the governemnt, but the fact is that all the people in china are not responsible for the country’s policies. they are not directly responsible for what the governemnt does.
that said, i also think that freedom of speech and expression is probably the most important issue. the people who elected the government should be able to voice their views on it. the government is directly responsible to them, after all.

Unlimited freedom is not the cure for all. Is is important but not the most important.  There are many other thing just as important if not more important. Explain why Unlimited freedom did not work for India, Philipines, Indonesia and many Ex soviets states, Latin American, South Asia etc. The evidence is all over the world.
It baffles me why Westen Demcracy avocate cannot see these evidences in front of them.  

Countries in Asia that have progressed the most own it to strong Authoritarian Goverment with strong ecomomic policy and ecomonic freedom. There are so many examples. if only these Western democracy advocate care to research. Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea all had strong dictatorial goverments in the past 50 years which allowed the poeple and country to progress ecomomically. Is this not ample proof that unlimited freedom without responsibility does not work in a developing country. It baffles me completely how these self righteous mostly Anglo-saxons from W Europe and N American cannot see China in the complete contex.

Today the CPC in China has a support of over 85% of the population. Yet it still fear its own people. So the idea that Chinese people are fearful of the government is misplaced. 
As strong as a government is Chinese people will rise up time and time again against any widespread injustice. Most W Europeans and N Aemricans do not look at history when they criticise China. The last uprising against CKS and his American armed and supported army were led by the lowly peasants Army. The entire US 7th Fleet could not save CKS from peasants.
So Chinese do not need Amesty or any W Europeans and N Aemrican NGOs to help “save” them from a good govrnment.
Here is a free history lesson:-
77 peasants led a peasant rebellion and overthrow the Qin army. Their names now being imortalised. At that time Qin has the strongest in the world. They then founded the HAN Dynasty which rule all under heaven for almost 500 years !!!!!
Now you do you know why we called themselves HAN people.

‘He whom I enclose with my name is weeping in this dungeon. I am ever busy building this wall all around; and as this wall goes up into the sky day by day I lose sight of my true being in its dark shadow. I take pride in this great wall, and I plaster it with dust and sand lest a least hole should be left in this name; and for all the care I take I lose sight of my true being.’
From ‘Gitanjali’ by Rabindranath Tagore.

A fundermental flaw of this topic is, it does not aware any statment is based on conditions/assumption, this kind of absolut statment ‘peaceful protests should not be banned’ is always wrong.  Aware the assumption of your statment is basic quality of any scientist and anyone involve in the academia.

 If you have every written a research paper, first thing you should aware and declare is your assumption, ie the condition in your statment.

So I totally oppose the statment of ”all peaceful protests should not be banned’ , think of this example, ’suppose potential earthquak is treaten a region, the government want people to leave, but some people still want to have peacful protest  on issues and do not like to leave’ . should those protests be allowed ? =)

There are be many dimension  of realty, many things you can not expect and understand in your own cultural value system.

AI, please do not live in your own universe and using your own univeral law to design the life for people in the other universe, it will not work. To china a stable social environment is the priority for the well being of all people, it will reduce poverty and save more people die from poverty, so you should understand why China will have slightly different practise than yours.

If someone can not understand a society based on a slightly different set of laws and still working, it maybe because,
 1)the person is not well informed and he do not have imagination.
2) Or deep down the person is racist and just want use this as an excuse to execise his power over others.

js, can you please give a few examples, tell me in this world people from which nation have the fortune to be fully responsible for the nations policies? If this is achieved in any nation, it is definitely the heaven on the earth and no need of any social advocay.

Control and being secrecy of governments is universal in our world, the difference is some of them just got more money and technology to have a better coverup, so nice and innocent people like you dont see the evidence of their misbehavior very often.

Problem of many people is they assume their way they do things is the best, in the cultural point of view, different does not imply superiorty or inferiorty, its like things in different dimensions, you can not compare. Please read collected articles of cultures and anthropology on our website http://culturalpeace.blogspot.com/ (Cultural Peace Group )

Of course not ALL Chinese are responsible for China’s policies, just like not ALL Americans are responsible for the Iraq War. What ZL Lin said, “Most Chinese prefer authoritarian government than a weak government,” appears to be true.

Many like ZL Lin, actively defend their government with ridiculous comments like “Why Amnesty doesn’t condemn the Tibetans.”

Dont know where barbarossa has been hiding but is it of no
consequence that the United States has supported virtually every fascist regime and right wing dictatorship since the second World War. Firstly it was general Communism then the
threat of Russia invading Europe and more recently terrorism.
I suppose all the poor souls killed in the process were just
unlucky. About the only dictator not supported in Africa has been Robert Mugabe but had Zimbabwe had oil I’m sure the U.S. would have found WMDs in every public toilet in Harare
and taken appropriate action.

Everyone should have the right to protest peacefully.

Unfortunately it sometimes gets out of hand and turns violent but thats just from people’s frustration at being opressed so we can’t excatly condemn their actions or condemn ALL protests just because some get out of hand.

Give the people a voice.

Lambo: Of course you are right about the US government. Fortunately, the citizens of the US can (but unfortunately often do not) peacefully protest US foreign policy without being beaten and tortured under the guise of national security. How effective protesting is in changing policy is of course debatable.

In response to thinkagainagain and ZLLin. I’m hypothesizing based on the content of your posts that you are either Chinese or at least from China.
ZL Lin, your argument that countries who have “progressed” most in Asia own it to authoritarian governments. The only conclusion one can draw from this is that there is some flaw in Asian culture or Asian people, that they are either too dumb or unruly to behave in a civil manner unless they are forced to by authoritarian governments. 
I also noticed you left Japan out. They are a highly successful nation by your standards of only evaluating economic issues. Are they the only Asian nation with a population with enough intelligence and moral fortitude to be awarded freedoms? I do not believe this is the case. 
 

I think people defending the Chinese Communist Party’s human rights record need to be a bit more specific. Rather than just repeating vague things about differing cultures and valuing security and being fed, it would be nice (since presumably none of the people who’ve actually been detained for peaceful protest and so on are so culturally different from us Westerners that they like it) if we could actually get some discussion of specific cases and policies-its always better to remind ourselves that real flesh and blood people suffer from the downside of governmental policies.  For example, do people think Hu Jia should currently be imprisoned.  Do people support the government’s media blackout on Tianamen etc…
Also, I think some of the Chinese people posting here (understandably, I’m sure they know more about the west than I probably know about China) don’t really realise the kind of position Amnesty has in Western Countries. Its not some kind of excuse for westerners to be rude and racist about the supposed backwardness (much as Westerners in general are often very guilty of this). It is in fact viciously critical of human rights abuses by the US, UK, Israel etc. (if you don’t believe me check out the videos they did of the various tortures the Americans are using on prisoners at Guantanamo bay). So its not subjecting the CCP to standards it wouldn’t use on any other government. Also, my experience of the kind of people who are Amnesty members (I’m a member of a student amnesty group) is that they’re the kind of people who are accused of having political views that are unpatriotic, anti-Western, soft on evil foreign terrorists etc. by people within our own society. To illustrate I was recently at a Amnesty organised human rights in China discussion in my home city, and i found lots of people pushing the ‘China’s achieved a lot since Mao died, things are much better, different cultures have different values, the west has problems too, being fed and secure are important as well as other rights’ line-and this was a room full of white western human rights activists.
In general, I think people need to distinguish (though I admit this is hard if your not experienced with Western society and culture) between the sort of opportunistic China-bashing you occasionally get from our governments or in our mainstream media (though i have seen the odd article defending China as well, and I read on the bbc website about Chinese people being attacked by ethnic tibetans in the recent riots before I read Chinese people online complaining about how no one in the western media reported this) and the criticism of dedicated activists and organisations like Amnesty who are usually also very critical of western governments, are usually made up of people who were against the Iraq war etc, etc.

Peaceful protests should not be banned.  I have been supporting the peaceful protests for Tibet on March 10th for 4 years, as have thousands around the world, with very little media coverage.  This year I was in New York City for the demonstrations, and it didn’t make the newspapers, even with over 3000 protesters.  In Tibet, the protests started on March 10th, and continued until March 14th, all with little media coverage.  Only when the protests turned violent did media and the world pay attention.  How sad that a people and culture have been protesting the oppression of the Chinese Communist Party for over 50 years, mostly peacefully, with little attention and support world wide.  But sadder yet is how the CCPs propaganda has been successful at persuading many Chinese that the Tibetans are actually the violent ones.  Just look at the history of the leaders:  the Dalai Lama, who writes and speaks about compassion, peace, dialogue, versus Hu Jintoa, who ordered the army to shoot on the students in Tiannemen Square.  I think such brief research can speak for itself.

My husband is Tibetan.  On March 17th, three days after the violence errupted in Lhasa, police went from house to house in the Tibetan district.  (Yes, Tibetans are a minority in their land now).  They took all those who seemed fit (between 20 and 50 years old).  Many of my husband’s relatives were taken into custody, where they were beat.  The relatives (including siblings) did not participate in any demonstration.  They were kept in jail for 4 weeks, where there were thousands of other Tibetans detained.  They recieved a bowl of rice soup twice / day.  They didn’t even demonstrate.  Imagine those who demonstrated peacefully?  The Chinese media showed an image of a Tibetan with a big knife on a car, but this was actually a Chinese man dressed as a Tibetan.  Tibetans usually carry knives, but not the kind that man was using.  IN Lhasa, there is extremely tight security, with police dressed as regular citizens and even as monks.  Yet on the day of the riot, there were no police for several hours.  When they showed up, the army showed up.  This leads me to believe that it was actually an inside job.  If it were not, then the CCP would have nothing to hide, and would welcome the independent investigation that so many have asked for. 

To Save Tibet. To say that CPC instigated the riots just show me where you get your news about Tibet. It also showed why the Free Tibet movement will ultimately fail. The entire Free Tibet movement is based on lies and racist sentiments. You may fool the world once, maybe twice but in the long term you will lose the trust of the many young ignorant “Free Tibet” students that support your failed cause.
DL may be a good man personally. But that does not make him a good leader. It may come as a shock to you but when he proclaim Tibet was “free” in 1911 after the fall of the Manchu, he did not even free the slaves and serfs for over 20 years !!! Then he signed a 17pt agreement with the CPC cementing Tibet with China. For several years after that he supported and praised Mao and the CPC. Again even at the advice of the CPC, he did not implement political or land reform nor did he build any school and did anything to help poor Tibetans. Then after a trip to India he was easily conned into believing that US and the British would help him create an independent Tibet. He then started the rebellion which lost due to poor support. Since then he has lived in India. Only then did PLA moved into Tibet, freed the slaves and implement land and political reform, building schools and roads and other infrastructures projects. After CIA withdrew support DL approached the CPC and wanted his old position back.
Now do you know why it is so hard to negotiate with the DL ?
Then during the run up to the Olympic he reached out again to the same Western powers and other ex CIA controlled NGOs that betrayed him years before.
His Exile group then started a violent protest in Tibet, and in W. Europe funded by these ex CIA controlled NGOs. These violent protests were cheered on by biased western media and western powers despite constraint by China.
This then, rightly or wrongly, led Chinese all over the world to believe that there was a conspiracy by Western powers and the Western media to attempt to use the Tibetan cause to breakup China. China sovereignty was under threat. Chinese world over now united behind the CPC and counter protest appeared spontaneously at just about every place the DL now go vastly outnumbering exile Tibetans.
Western leaders, seeing how these protests have backfired and made the CPC stronger, now queue up to go to Beijing. The Tibetan protest and boycott has now collapsed. Betrayed again. But the Beijing Olympic is also somewhat tarnished and now scaled down. The division between ethnic Hans, Huis and Tibetans are now wider then ever.
And in the end the people that suffer are the ordinary Tibetans living in Tibet.
 
 

For AI, below text fromUnited Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization - United Nation Science, Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity Your work does not compatible with spirit of this Declaration ’ The defence of cultural diversity is an ethical imperative, inseparable from respect for human dignity. ”Cultural rights are an integral part of human rights, which are universal, indivisible and interdependent.’http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0012/001271/127160m.pdf

Editor’s note: This post has been edited due to space constraints. The writer had included text from the Declaration found in the link provided. Please visit the link for more information.

Save Tibet, thank you for your information, let me correct one big error in your statment, hu jin tao was not the leader of China during tian men incidence ,  it was almost 20 years ago, after the incidence, there were another leader, jiang ze ming before hu. You have changed too much of the history.

In relation to the ’compassionate’ Dalai, could you please explain why there were an slave class when Tibet was under him? Was he also very compassionate to those slaves?

mirabelle1, I’m hypothesizing based on the content of your posts that you have not been to China and do not understand Chinese, therefore dont know enough about the country.

for my background information please check death penalty section, that was my major focus.

Its so ironic someone say they want to help the human rights in China, but they dismiss the opinions of Chinese people on this issues. Dogs like to be walked, cats like to sleep, why you force cat to walk, dog to sleep based on your personal interests and say this is helping them? They dont want your help!

Enter your comment here
ZL Lin: In 1911, the Dalai Lama was not born yet! The current Dalai Lama perhaps should not have been so easily deceived by Mao, but he was a very young man while Mao was a well seasoned dictator. 
I ask you ZL Lin, if things are so great in Tibet, why won’t the Chinese government allow freedom of the press so that we can find out what is really going on? If things are so much better in Tibet for Tibetans since the PLA invaded and occupied the nation of Tibet, then why do so many Tibetans risk life and limb to scale the Himalayas and escape to India and Nepal to live in refugee camps? It is common sense to conclude that if the Chinese government has nothing to hide, they would allow freedom of press and not enforce a media blackout in Tibet following the riots. It is also obvious to conclude that only oppressed people would risk their lives and leave their families. The Chinese government may be able to convince many of their own people to believe the unbelievable with racist techniques, but it does not fool most of the world no matter how vigorously they defend and justify their nation’s policies.
thinkagainagain: Not that it is any of your business, but I am ethnically Chinese and have been to China. 
 

thinkagainagain, I am 100% in favor of listening to the views of the Chinese people. No one can decide your fate. It is however, frustrating to many non-Chinese because of your government’s monopoly on what is known or allowed to be spoken about by the general public. Chinese people with a critical and independent view on issues of human rights, indeed politics, dare not view their opinions in public. Those who do – read Hu Jia and Chen Guangchen – are silenced, usually with discrimination. The Chinese People’s understand of, and willingness to, discuss human rights issues is continuously stifled by Party control and information bulwarks. Give me an independent thought and I’ll give you all the time in the world. Jia you ren quan.

To mirabelle1. With freedom of press must come responsibility. The press is very powerful. They can influance government and can create chaos. Look what happen when the riots in Tibet broke out. Despite China not using force against the violent Tibetans, the Western media lied and used pictures of Nelapese and Indian Police. Are the newspaper so stupid that they cannot tell the different between Nepalnese, Indian and Chinese ? Do not be so niave. IT IS DONE DELIBERATELY.  When the Tibetans attack the Olympic torch, the press itteraly cheered them on. They show only the few Tibetans despite pro China supporter vastly outnumbering them. Do you think they do not know ? Again it is done DELIBERATEY. 
If you want to promote responsible reporting in China you do not do that BY LYING. 
If you allow western media into Tibet. You can be sure they will create as much bad news as possible, fanning ethnic hatred and violence. Then cheering on any violence. Bad news and violence make money. Then you have VOA broadcasting lies about monks being killed by Chinese police creating more hatred.

In fact China has been very open about Tibet. Why do you think Tibet was open to millions of tourist for the past several years before the 3.14 riots.

Why do Tibetan go to India ? I guess to have a easy life. Afterall new refugees are taken of very well with the millions of dollars provided by ex CIA controlled NGOs.

Learn from History. CIA used the Tibetan for their own agenda. They betray DL years ago. They will betray them again.

Let China bring prosperity and development to Tibet. Tibetan culture is alive and spreading through out China. In fact I love Tibetan songs. Han Hong is one of the best. 
In the end China is Tibet best hope. 

LZ Lin, you live in a one dimensional world and you have only a one dimensional view on life. I am without doubt that you are a party member, probably a party employee and therefore should be ignored, but for the benefit of other posters who might come across your discursive and inaccurate rants, allow me to address some of your claims.
 
Freedom of the Press does come with responsibility, you’re absolutely right. But to whom: To the State, to the CCP or to the Chinese people? The fact that Article 35 of your Constitution guarantees the freedom of the press, and the stark juxtapose of the realisty: that press in China means the freedom to report as directed by the Communist Party, indicates that your proposed “responsibility” is to the CCP. A logic I might add that is terminally flawed. The reason why the freedom of the press is so important is because it reports on, and exposes when necessary, government work. As the government is responsible to the people, the people deserve to know the truth. Hence, your idea of “responsibility” is a crazy notion.
 
Here’s some facts for you…. “responsibility”…. Ha!

• All press organizations remain under the authority of the Communist Party’s Central Propaganda Department (CPD), which issues both general guidelines and specific “Do Not Report” orders on news items that it deems unfavorable to the Party.

• China’s press organizations that don’t tow the Party’s line are shut, while foreign organizations risk losing access to the Chinese market. In 2002, Yahoo China was forced to hand over email account details that led to a 10-year jail term for a dissident who had been emailing newsletters to expose government propaganda. In 2005, Microsoft China deleted the blog of a respected journalist as ordered by the Chinese government. Today, Microsoft’s Chinese blogging service still filters blogs deemed to be unfriendly to the government, while Google’s Chinese search engine filters government-unfriendly websites.

• Reporters are paid low base salaries and high bonuses whose amount depends on the number of reports that make it past the in-house and CPD censors. To support themselves financially, reporters need to file reports that please the censors.

•  Whenever foreign journalists want to cover a story outside of Beijing, they need to get advance permission from the local government, which means it can forbid the coverage or prepare in advance so that the foreign journalists see what the local government wants them to see. Fearing the delays in dealing with coverage requests from the surge of 30,000 journalists expected in China for the Olympics and the negative press coverage such delays will instigate, China recently relaxed this rule temporarily until October of 2008. But foreign journalists still won’t be able to roam around with complete freedom since they now have to hire local “guides” appointed by the local government.

•  Western foreign journalists who offend the Chinese government are expelled. Asian foreign journalists can face jail time. Chinese journalists who offend are demoted …

[Editor's note: Edited for length. Please see Guidelines.]

I think one of the reasons that Tibetans flee to India is because they value DIVERSITY in India, and not in China. And for me, that’s why freedom of the press is important, because it should create representation for minorities, like Tibetans. 

If your media is not free (whether due to censorship or the actions of businesses), it can create intolerance to diversity and of course criticism.

ZL Lin - Stating that China is Tibet’s best hope is similar to stating that being part of mainstream Chinese society is superior to being part of a Tibetan society. The next step is to advocate that this society should be altered.

The society that many in China advocate for Tibetans is partly the product of having one’s information tightly controlled by the Party on the one hand and being wide open to the forces of commercial communication on the other.

You believe that the press should be responsible. In theory a free press acts like a free market. Any type of content is provided so long as there is any type of person available to read it, it is not the press’s job to be responsible, it is that of the reader. And it is certainly not the job of any other person or authority to enforce what content you read.

While the economic miracle of China is truly both great, I like Mirabelle, fail to see the role that press censorship has played in this.

Enter your comment here
It would be great if all press can be accurate and responsible, but this will never be the case. It is more naive to just blindly believe China’s government or any government where there is no freedom of press, which is the only other alternative. 
If the Chinese government blames VOA and the other press for “getting it wrong” about Tibet, then let them see it for themselves. This is what investigative reporting is about.

Jimba, i am afriad those case you mentioned are marginal cases, they are not significant statistically, it has been taking advantaged by anti china propoganda.
 I have good contact with NGOs in China, one of my national research in this country is complete by the help of NGOs, they can critiszed the work of government in most of the case as long as they are CONSTRUCTIVE and really want to help the nation and people.  Things are changing, government care about social stabability to ensure the economy, so they have slightly different policy than some of other nations at this stage. 

mirabelle1 sure its not my bussiness, but it is just in response of your hypothesizing in the first place, is that your bussiness? in case you forget,, this is what you said, ‘I’m hypothesizing based on the content of your posts that you are either Chinese or at least from China.’
are you really ethinic Chinese? ?  Can you type the pingying (one presentation of Chinese language in alphabet form) of I AM A CHINESE here? All chinese friend here can help to verify it, Otherwise people have no reason to trust any of your statment.

To Jimba : We all want to promote responsible press in China. Not the type of unlimited Western press that allows you to take a picture of P Diana as she lie dying.
Not the type of press that lie as in using India and Neplaese police to distort the news. Not the type of press that mis led the United State into war in Iraq. Not the type of press that incite racial hatred like the junk toys remark by CNN Cafferty.
You have no idea how irresponsible most of the Western press are. Western press need to earn the respect of the Chinese first.
And I am not from China. I am from Malaysia.

dm - I think people defending the Chinese Communist Party’s human rights record need to be a bit more specific. Rather than just repeating vague things about differing cultures and valuing security and being fed, it would be nice

To dm. If you really study the development of democracy, you will see that the Western Democracy was developed based on Anglo-Saxon culture which is based a lot on individualism and respect for individual expression no matter how small or young these people may be. It is not perfect as we have seen how talking and spinning and showbiz now take president over qualification for selection of a leader. Still I would say overall it is accepted and works in majority Anglo-Saxon countries such as in W Europe and N America.
And that is also why it failed miserably in non-Anglo-Saxon countries especially in India.
 
Chinese culture on the other hand are based on respect for the parents, elders and teachers/scholars. Family name and honor, are important and the Father authority is respected.  Individualism is somewhat frown upon.
Chinese proverb. The nail that sticks out gets hammered in. But in this system Chinese leaders are often more experience and qualified. The whole country benefit at the expends of a few individual. Again I am saying this is a perfect system either.

BUT WHAT I AM SAYING IS THIS.
It is up to individual country to implement their own type of democracy based on their local culture and local characteristics and not blindly copy directly alien system that is not their own. I should also add not to impose your system onto others.
 
Chinese proverb: Each person crosses the river by slowly by using his feet to feel his own way across.

I notice a tendency to confuse the issue of Human Rights with democracy.  The PRC is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.  There is no reason why any of these rights should be in conflict with traditional Asian / Confucian culture. (I do find it ironic that the CCP now uses the tradition argument although it once aimed to abolish traditional culture / philosophy.)   So, as a signatory, it is perfectly reasonable to hold China ALONG WITH all other signatories to account for the extent to which they meet their commitments.  Some of these rights enshrine the right to peaceful protest, to organize such protests, and to report their perspectives freely through the media without fear of punishment.  These rights which China has endorsed include:
- Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
- No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
- Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion
-  Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
-  Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
So, the modern Chinese state endorses the UNDHR, but so does traditional culture.  Don’t forget that Confucius  taught that rulers must treat their subject with benevolence lest they lose the Mandate of Heaven: “Bu shi wu yi, yi dao shi jun.”  Respecting human rights falls perfectly within Chinese tradition.  The culture argument is just a red haring used by elites to deflect criticism without having actually to  address the wrongs they commit.  Confucius did say:  “If what a ruler says is not good and no one goes against him, then is this not almost a case of a saying leading the state to ruin?”
To be truly Confucian, one must respect authority, but for the sake of the good of the state be willing to point out when authority is in error.  The problem we see in China is that the PRC wants to maintain the first part of the equation but not the second.  As a result, although peaceful protest is in no way contrary to Chinese tradition, the PRC cannot permit it.
 
 

Thinkagain: Think again. Isolated occurances? Did you even read my post? Did I refer to “isolated cases”? No, these are NOT isolated cases, they are well documented realities of systemic flaws in the CCPs control of Chinese media.
Why these flaws differ from western media bias is that if you don’t say good things about the CCP, you find yourself in a hot water. But, here, read this and make up your own mind:

“Want access? Go easy on China. (I can translate it if you wish)

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080621/FOREIGN/425026836/1002/NEWS

Even James Millward, a respected Xinjiang Historian (both in China and outside China) found himself banned because he contributed to a publication that was a lil bit critical of the CCP. What a joke.

Enter your comment here
ZL Lin: Nobody is arguing that western media is responsible. In fact, I will say media as a whole is not responsible. However press without freedom of press is less responsible than press with no freedom of press. These examples you gave (e.g. Princess Diana) tasteless? Yes. Were they newsworthy? No. Were they responsible? No. However, this is the price of freedom of press. This is also how we find out about corporate and government abuses as well. Again you are making the argument that there is an inherent weakness in Asian societies and individuals (except for Japan) that in order to “progress” they must have authoritarian regimes. I simply do not believe that argument.
thinkagainagain: It is your business if you don’t believe that I am ethnically Chinese. I concluded you were because of two reasons your defense of the PRC, and your grammatical errors which were similar to those whose native tongue is Chinese.  And would typing “I am Chinese” in pingying prove anything? You can type this into any online translator for free! 

hmmm.. I think we can argue about systems and ideologies until the cows come home. Why don’t we focus on the little things? I think we can start by looking at one activist.
I’m using Chen Guangcheng as an example.
He is blind - he was sentenced to jail for damaging property and blocking the traffic. Actually the real reason was that he tried to hold the authorities in Linyi city accountable for forced abortions and sterilisations - and we’re talking about thousands. not 1 or 2. (not that 1 or 2 would be fine)
Prison guards have ordered other inmates to beat up Chen, and kick him.
Do you think that’s fair? Shouldn’t someone try to help him?
 
It’s so easy to sit in a corner and talk about how and when the system should change but right now, this blind man is being imprisoned for trying to help other people. How would you feel if that person is a friend, or yourself? (It might be easier for you to imagine the scenario if you put yourself in the shoes of Wang Dejia who was jailed for writing.)
 
And pls note that this guy is a Chinese – helping other Chinese. So why the talk about how ‘Western media is distorting this and that’, ‘Westerners shouldn’t get involved’ etc. It’s not as if ‘Westerners’ are trying to put down the Chinese. All they are doing is trying to help the Chinese who are suffering from such injustice.

Enter your comment here
Joshua: You are exactly right. We should care about the one individual, or the small picture. The problem is that even he would be viewed by many Chinese at worse a troublemaker and at best a sacrifice that needs to be tolerated for the sake of national security. I hope JL Lin is incorrect, but I’m afraid most Chinese people prefer or at least tolerate an authoritarian government so that China can be “strong.” Poor blind Mr. Chen can  be sacrificed, because after all he is a handicapped man who contributes nothing to the strength, progress and overall good of the nation of China. 

To mirabelle1: I have given many eg such as Malaysia under Mahathir, Singapore, Taiwan under CKS, Korea and even Hong Kong. All these countries or colony were under dictatorship and they develop the most. They are in fact good bench mark for China. They all have responsible press but not unlimited free press. They all had economy freedom but limted political freedom. What more can I say to convince you ?
You may be bought up in a developed country where political stability is taken for granted. I was bought up in an unstable 3rd world country and if a riot occurred there is no where to hid.
But under Mahathir authoritarian rule we had the best economic growth, and the 3 races were never more united.  Since most Chinese engaged in business, social and political stability allow businesses to flourish and because of that most Chinese always supported Mahathir. We understand China more then anybody else as China is taking the same path as Malaysia but with a bigger country and much more people. 

To mirabelle1: If I am not mistaken, you believe in unlimited freedom of the press. I do not. I believe in responsible press.
I say again. The Press is very powerful. Another Eg is the Wen Ho Lee case. He was detained for 11months in solitary confinement in chains. He was lied to. He was forbidden to speak Chinese. He was put through a Kangaroo court with trump up charges. And this happened in United States. This was all because of the press. The 2 reporters that were responsible are still walking free today.  Why?
If you are Chinese then you must be familiar with Yin and Yang. The middle path.
And yes, China needs to find the middle path where there is a balance between too much control and no control.

it seems to me that the whole issue whether the free tibet movement is valid or not will never end…..some people say it based on lies, somebody else says it is an honest attempt to bring to the world’s notice the plight of suffering people.
whatever the case may be, you can’t ignore reports of human rights violations, can you? regardless of where in the world these incidents take place?
i am personally inclined to believe that people are not out of their minds to put all their effort into asking the world to hear them out….ther HAS to be a reason. otherwise, we wouldn’t have people burning themselves up in front of the chinese embassy here in india or anywhere else…..please don’t come up with the lame reason of ‘attention seeking’. save your breath.
as for the claims of slavery during the regime of the lamas….apart from economic progress today, how is it any different? sure, the qinghai railway is built and thats definetely a cause for celebration…but what about the claims that tibetans are losing their jobs to the migrants from mainland china? i personally have never been to china, but have read ebough reuters and other reports to have a fair idea of what it is like. lhasa has lost its cultural identity, has it not? brothels everywhere, tibetans are definetely a minority in their own land.  stats say that the world loses a culture every two weeks…..how long will it be before nobody can relate to tibetan culture? we can’t afford to let that happen to ANY culture, this being no different. and i repeat, china’s cultural unification theory has no validity.
i’m with save tibet. but i’m open to ideologies from china….i repeat, i’m not biased against the chinese themselves….but i’ve got more than my fair share to say about their policies.
thinkthnkagain……maybe i’m being too idealistic, eayh. but i still stand by what i said.

To ZL Lin:
1.  The Wen Ho Lee case is tragic, however the point is that there was a legal process which led to his being released.  He later took the US government to court and in 2006 won $1.6 million for his suffering.  This due process is not available in China.  Those who protest any government policy are subject to imprisonment. Being from Malaysia you must be familiar with Ching Cheong, who got off lightly compared to mainland nationals.
 
2.  I can agree with your point that China’s development does not need to look like that in Western countries.  However, without rule of law and Human Rights, progress for all Chinese people and China’s development is constrained.  I can tolerate a different political system, but basic Human Rights and Rule of Law are necessary to ensure that all Chinese people benefit from China’s  growth. There is no middle path if it means arbitrary detention for some and economic wealth for the elite.
By the way, congratulations to the Chinese Olympic Committee for a wonderful opening ceremony.  I hope that my enjoyment of it didn’t come at the expense of anyone’s freedom of speech.
 
 

its costing many far more than their freedom of speech!!
it all seems quite soothing now, the familiar olympic media train in full spin, the fist pumping patriotism, the spirit of competition, the brotherhood of nations etc etc…
unfortunately,  a few miles down the road,  innocent citizens are brutalized in forced labour prisons, for what reason?
for simply speaking, writing, believing, acting,in ways that are taken for granted in democratic societies.
the IOC is a disgrace!! they caved in on human rights for the sake of commerce.

To anthonyinhk. You  miss my point. My point is that the press is so powerful it can send an innocent guy to solatary confinement. The 2 guys are still walking free.

China is not prefect but China human right has improved tremendousy. 

To anthonyinhk. Why do you think that China development is constriant ?  China development IS unpresidented because China’s Human rights has improved tremondously. Almost 90% of Chinese surveyed support the CPC. 
What Talk You ?

To anthonyinhk, democracy, human rights and human development are all interlinked. Yes, China is a signatory. Every country are at different level of development so each country has different level of human rights.
What most Western Democracy Advocate get confused is that they wrongly believe that Human Rights ONLY INCLUDE unlimited freedom of speech. They are shock to learn that poverty eridicate, education, social and political stability, heath care are also part of human rights as enshired in the united nation. If you look at the UNHD indices China has improve on each and every one and is the only counrty that has overtake other country.
Many of the UNHD indices are directly related to Human Rights.
In fact Western Democracy advocate thinks just because India has multiparty election India has better human rights. That is BULLSHIT as India is by far the greatest human right violator. 

To mirabelle1 - Thanks for pointing out my mistake but I beleive you got my point.  As for DL being conned by Mao because he was young. Here is more free history lesson. His envoy signed the 17pt agreement in Beijing. His envoy then took the 17pt agreement back to Lhasa and with all his matured advisors he andosed it in Lhasa.
Your remark about being young means a person is immature. Let me enlighten you to some Tibetan culture. DL started to rule when he was 13 years old. I also agree that we should get rid of this culture of letting a 13 year old monk run Tibet. But of course I would be acused of cultural genocide.

kakadao said. “While the economic miracle of China is truly both great, I like Mirabelle, fail to see the role that press censorship has played in this.”

Responsible press create social harmony and national unity. That allows economy to flourish. - Eg China.
Irresponsible press create confusion, incite ethnic and religious hatred, allows small elite educated interest group to have much larger influance. - Eg India.  

To js. According to Free Tibet movement. Over 2 million Tibetans was killed. The founder of Free Tibet  Patrict French later went to Tibet and could not find one evidence of any massacre.  One lie always lead to another. Then Free Tibet accuse China of cultural genocide. Since you are a Free Tibet member, perhaps you can give me a few specific Tibetan culture that has dissapeared ?

JL LIn: The press can be irresponsible.  They play a role, but ultimately they were not responsible for Wen Ho Lee, Richard Jewel or Steven Hatfill injustices. The government initiates and executed all of these injustices. Police and government officials feed the press with “facts” about these “suspects” and find sympathetic and/or sensationalist reporters (i.e. the US version of propaganda). The government, not the press, was responsible for incarcerating and/or prosecuting these people.  
Your argument is flawed in assuming irresponsible reporting (i.e. reporting falsities) does not happen in an authoritarian regime. In a totalitarian and authoritarian system, all of the same can and does happen. In the case of all 3 people, they were all able to use the press to expose what happened to them, not something that can happen without freedom of press.
So, again I pose the same question. Are you implying that there is something inherently flawed about Asians and or Asian culture (except for Japan) that they cannot flourish except under an authoritarian regime?

Dear mirabelle1 , there is no easy english sentence to pinying translation online, that is why I ask it this way, you do not know how to speak it, don’t you?

And very nice to see you finally admit what you care is a few people but not majority of Chinese people. 

This is exactly where your bias from, and in the future, do not claim you care about human rights in China, because what you care is the human rights of a few people in China, this is your really meanning.

Jimba, you are talking about another isolated case, let me show you the number of total population, so it give you an idea of the size of Chinese population.
current population 1,321,851,888
you can raise hundreds cases, let us put 1000 cases here see how much 1000 is in the total population
1000/1,300,000,000 =0.000076%
Do you understand how small is this number?
Many rights activist are more like artist, they are kind but unfortunately they are not very good at math, I understand that very well, not only because I was in social advocay very long, but also because I was one of them many years ago. I have leart that only by using the math and statistic we can have an unbiased opinion on issues, that is the truth.
ZL Lin has used some good statistic, millions of people are out of poverty
FYI below is an article from work bank, not from Chinese government
‘Across China, there were over 400 million fewer people living in extreme poverty in 2001 than 20 years previously. By 2001, China had met the foremost of the Millennium Development Goals — to reduce the 1990 incidence of poverty by half — and it had done so 14 years ahead of the 2015 target date for the developing world as a whole.’
lets caculate this again
Fighting Poverty: Findings and Lessons from China’s Success
http://econ.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/EXTDEC/EXTRESEARCH/0,,contentMDK:20634060~pagePK:64165401~piPK:64165026~theSitePK:469382,00.html
lets caculate this again
400,000,000/1,300,000,000 =30.76%

con-0.000076%
pro-30.76%

Can you compare the size of this two numbers? which matters?

thinkagain
you must understand, in the west we have this notion that even minorities have rights, it works quite well as many ex Chinese & other minorities enjoy the freedom.
oh, while we’re doing the sums, hows the gender balance stacking up for future wives.

No because peaceful protests cause no harm to anyone!

sure minority has the rights, this such common sense thing, I lives in the west for manys years and has been doing social advocacy all these year, here certain cases maybe better than China, but still lot lots problem in minority rights, the age long problem of rights for native people is just an example.

but if you are in the leadership position like China, when you have so many problem to tackle, you have to choose those most important things, some case might works better in the west, because you are already pass this stage and the economy allow this to happen. 

Its not the case in China, Chinese people understand this, but some guys here dont. But they think they know China better than Chinese people.

Do you know in the wild , mum animals sometimes abandon some babies in order to have better chance to raise others?

EASIER SAID THAN DONE

And let me tell you, minority rights is very compatible with communist ideology, it is suppose to be the ultimate massive equality, it just take time to completely reform the system.

Plus, I have read HU Jia’s article, I personally dont like what he wrote, I think what he wrote is destructive and simply anti-social and I know many chinese share my view, coz i read a online post of this issue on anti-cnn.com, there are too much irresponsible statments, like he say many people like dalai lama and want he back, buddist want him back people want him back, I know lots of buddist in China, DL is probabaly least favoriat name in the Country even among the religious communities, go to china do a survey you will know it. but west like hu jia’s talk it, they dont care human rights of chinese people, as long as its against the government, as long as it say human rights is bad in China, they like it, they will publish it. they just selective forget the 400,000,000 smiling face which get out of the poverty.

And see what AI has done, accuse China and want to put politics into the game with false statement of human rights, say its not improving.

I just read an article from ‘Why china love olympic’, interesting summerise
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/11/olympics2008.usa
‘t was easy to spot in Sichuan, and it will undoubtedly be prominent as the Olympics unfold. When the Olympic torch toured the earthquake-ravaged province just days ahead of the games, thousands of onlookers sported identical “I (heart) China” T-shirts. The shirts aren’t just a fashion statement in this Olympic moment, but a political statement.
“I (heart) China” serves as the Beijing regime’s succinct public response to foreign criticism of China’s human rights record: If our people love our country, then you meddlers from outside ought to just shut up. It’s a fair point.
In China’s Olympic moment, foreign critics are focusing on all the country has failed to achieve, from its abundant air pollution to scant human rights. China’s citizens, on the other hand, see all that the country has accomplished after emerging from foreign domination and internal turmoil. They are proud of those achievements and resentful of foreigners pointing out China’s shortcomings, especially when those failings don’t bother the alleged victims.’

Thinkagainagain: You are once again reinforcing the argument and thoughts that there is a flaw in the Chinese character that makes it incapable of function except under authoritarian rule.  Saying, “…Chinese people understand this, but some guys here don’t. But they think they know China better than Chinese people”
You assume all Chinese feel and think the way you do. Chinese people are not a bunch of single-minded ants. Your justification for trampling over the rights of minorities for the benefit of the majority along with your analogy, ”Do you know in the wild , mum animals sometimes abandon some babies in order to have better chance to raise others?” is absolutely condescending. You are in essence saying that the Chinese government thinks of their citizens, as “baby animals?”
Your comment about the Dalai Lama being “least favoriat” (least favorite) amongst Buddhists in China may be true, but this is not true in Tibet and the rest of the world. Also, you have no accurate view of how religious Buddhists in China or Tibet feel about the Dalai Lama no matter what they say.  When one can be arrested for merely having a picture of the Dalai Lama, wouldn’t it be a deterrent to saying anything favorable about him in public?

To cadgee and mirabelle1  : The West have a lot to say about human rights for miniorities. But has really nothing to show for it. After only 200 years the cultural genocide of the Native American is complete. On the otherhand China after 2000 years still have 56 national miniorities. Tibet also has 2 Tibetan Universities. Millions spend on renovating Monastaries.  US currency has only English. China’s currency has 5 languagues including Tibetan. I could go on and on. Basically you are just Talk and talk but nothing to show.   

mirabelle1. You have strange logic. You say press play a role but are totally not responsible for anyhting they do.
Well they did a hell of a good role sending Wen Hole Lee to 11 months of solatarity confinement. Them if that was not enough, they cheer on as US charged into Iraq. What a great role. 4000 American life lost for what ? 20,000 more seriously wounded affecting the life of over 100,000 Americans.  Who was SUPPOSE to play what role.

To mirabelle1. Asian culture being inherently flawed ? I beleive that Asian can understand and see a problem within the contex of a much bigger picture, in the contex of history, in the contex of the bottomline. Bananas like you see alot of details of only one thing…unlimited freedom (Without responsibility).

As for Japan. Japan is an occupied country.

thinkagain, it doesn’t matter if 1, 1000 or 1000000 people are being mistreated in China. Injustice is wrong no matter what the numbers. I am sure if you were one of those “isolated cases” that had been mistreated by the Chinese government, you would want the system to change and human rights to improve.

 ’there is a flaw in the Chinese character that makes it incapable of function except under authoritarian rule’,

I am sorry, i totally oppose to this statementthis is your view, not mine

my point is change take time,  what I oppose is this kinid of negative rights campaign based on fabricated stories and prejudice.

a real compassionate people can understand the difficulty of others and wont push them too hard and raise unrealistic demand. and a real compassionate group will not spoil the event which is so important for so many Chinese people. Reaction of Chinese people to the game says all, please save your energy. They dont need your ‘help’,

Once again, from your statment, you show what you have is only racial prejudice towards Chinese people.

yes amy, I understand you care for small pictures,  injustice is injustice to each victim, whatever its in China or the rest of world,  dont forget all nations has many isolated victims! why people dont see the injustice and small picture in those other nations?  This is discrimination!

This article answer the question:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/ngos/credib/2003/1306interview.htm
Is Amnesty International Biased?
Dennis Bernstein and Dr. Francis Boyle
Discuss the Politics of Human Rights

thinkagain,
”do you know in the wild, mum animals sometimes abandon some babies in order to have better chance to raise others”
I’m not sure wether this is your analogy for discriminatory sex selection among Chinese population or, your justification for the persecution of minority groups.
thenagain, I guess its part & parcel of the same problem.
what is your solution to the emerging gender imbalance in Chinese society, with its social implications?
when will girl babies be valued equally with boys?

ZL Lin: 
 ”Asian culture being inherently flawed ? I beleive that Asian can understand and see a problem within the contex of a much bigger picture, in the contex of history, in the contex of the bottomline. Bananas like you see alot of details of only one thing…unlimited freedom (Without responsibility).”
Name calling like “banana” is indicative of a position that is indefensible. I am not saying that Asian culture is “inherently flawed!” YOU are saying that by using the argument that Asian countries that have progressed do so only under authoritarian rule. 
Ask Japanese if they feel like they are occupied. I have no doubt that many Japanese would like to see the US gone, but there are a lot of Japanese who look at the US armed forces as free defense. 
Also, to say minorities have no rights in the west is absolutely absurd. I for one can (and have) gone out to my government and protested against racist actions on Asians. I belong to the largest Asian American PAC in the US and have organized events related to racist actions against Asians. I have never been in prison nor do I have any fear of going to prison for such activities. Every minority in the US has the right to do this without fear of retribution AND the government knows that we minorities and the majority can be trusted with this freedom. 

katiebgc said: No because peaceful protests cause no harm to anyone!

What ? And the Western press would have nothing to exciting report ? 

ZL Lin: Your quote “… Let me enlighten you to some Tibetan culture. DL started to rule when he was 13 years old. I also agree that we should get rid of this culture of letting a 13 year old monk run Tibet. But of course I would be acused of cultural genocide.”
While I think a 13 year old has no business in the leadership position, getting rid of a culture by means of force and violence is cultural genocide.

ZL Lin: Your quote regarding the press, “ Well they did a hell of a good role sending Wen Hole Lee to 11 months of solatarity confinement.” 
Yes the press had a role, because they CHOSE to be propaganda for those in the US government hell bent on putting Lee in prison. In an authoritarian nation where the government CONTROLS the press, the press will automatically function as a propaganda for the government. The press in a society which has “freedom of press” chooses to be irresponsible and often does. The press in in a society without press freedoms cannot be responsible. It does not have the choice.

No offend was intended when making the “banana” remark. If any offence is taken, it is most regratable. Like I keep saying every country is at a different level of development thus have different level of human rights. China human rights have progressed tremendously. If not China would not have developed so fast. And as I keep saying again each country should find its own way to democracy based on it culture and local conditions and not blindly copy directly an alien system that is not its own. Also social and political stability are crucial to allows economic development and that development will bring more wealth and more freedom.
In fact every year there are already thousands of protests in China.  
 

And not only there the largest US base in Japan, Japan’s constitution is written by a US General. As I recall WW2 ended over 60 years ago.  If that is not an occupied county, it definitely comes close. Not that I care.

Well, you have every right to call me a “banana”, but that it was not intended to be offensive or at least condescending is perhaps a bit disingenuous. You see, I grew up in a Chinese home and know what all of these terms like “bamboo” and “bananas” mean. There are many Asians who think the same way about freedom of press. Perhaps you are right, they may be a minority, but nonetheless, Asian and no more a “banana” than those Asians who have modeled their business practices on other western businesses of which many authoritarian Asian countries have no objections to.
The US constitution was based on the Magna Carta. Does it mean it is any less American? I think not. Likewise, the Japanese constitution has had amendments and supplements. But then again you don’t care.

Reposted:
To js. According to Free Tibet movement. Over 2 million Tibetans was killed. The founder of Free Tibet  Patrict French later went to Tibet and could not find one evidence of any massacre.  One lie always lead to another. Then Free Tibet accuse China of cultural genocide. Since you are a Free Tibet member, perhaps you can give me a few specific Tibetan culture that has dissapeared ?

js, “Free Tibet” may sound very cut and dry.  You might think…who would not support such a cause ?  Young people like to be radical. But I hope you do more research about Tibet. There are many ex CIA run NGOs who like nothing more then to make used of young ignorant people for their own agenda.  

thinkagainagain: If you don’t think you can get a translation online, you are mistaken. You can get almost any language, even very obscure languages like Tibetan can be translated online. 
Your quotes, “And very nice to see you finally admit what you care is a few people but not majority of Chinese people…This is exactly where your bias from, and in the future, do not claim you care about human rights in China, because what you care is the human rights of a few people in China, this is your really meaning.”
I don’t know how you come to the conclusion that I “admit” I care about only the minority. First of all, I never said such a thing, is this a typical way you argue with everyone is by making things up? 
Your conclusion that caring about the rights of the minority means implies that you do not care about the rights of the majority is flawed logic. The issue of human rights is not binary.

Definitely, Peaceful protests should be allowed so that mass can express  themselves and should be heard.

To thinkagainagain and ZL Lin: In Beijing, 2 women in their 70s were sentenced to reeducation through labor. Both need canes to walk and one is blind in one eye. These 2 women wanted to draw attention to their situation. They were promised new apartments to replace their homes when their homes near Tianamen Square were demolished for the Olympics. Instead they were relocated to ramshackle apartments on the outskirts of the city. So why then were they sentenced? For protesting? No. They were sentenced for applying for a permit to protest in the area the Chinese government designated for protesting during the Olympic games. 
So thinkagainagain, why don’t you show what a “good” Chinese citizen you are by defending the government for the treatment of these 2 old ladies? After all, they are “troublemakers.”

mirabelle, you should know better then to trust what the western media print. These ladies are certainly not going anywhere. The Western media bashing has gone to such an extreme that they do not even TRY to be fair. They are so pissed off because the Olympic is going so well. No riots to report, no pollution to report, no large scale protest to report. Ratings have been outstanding. Tickets all sold out. Boycott ha collapsed. Heck even when one of their own was bundled off in a police va

mirable:
The story you said is true. well, thank you for your concerning about our country, while maybe you even don’t have time to look after your country. Or maybe you think all the world are running perfect except China.

But anyway, I totally agree with you that such horrible things should not happen. Although it did happen in China, that is the dark side of this country. However, act like an enemy wont help to resolve the problem, what reaction you want from us if you act like an en

enemy. Some western media just years of years consistantly only show the negitive image, news of China make us too hard to believe that they are trying to help us.

beleive or not, in my opinion, some western media are as bias as chinese media, or even worse.

Cont… van, the whole world did not care as the world were more interested in their athetes performance and participation in the Olympic. Even the channel 4 news reporter blew a fuse during the IOC press conference. The all powerful western press that could influence so many western government to the point of going to war could not budge China. 

To mirabelle. I do not understand why you refuse to see these human rights/human development problems from a poor man view. In Malaysia we used to have many squatters that would build homes in vacant land and when the land owner wants to develop his land, these squatters would refused to move. They would claim compensation even though they do not own the land. Government would pay them off as dragging them off would be bad PR. As compensation is based on family and not per house, these squa

kobe, thankyou for confirming mirabelle’s story.
I agree, western media is far from perfect. bias generally serves the interests of the particular media magnates, in terms of their business interests & ambitions, which also encompasses their political leanings.
human rights tends not to be a big deal amongst mainstream western media, especially if it conflicts with rights to major events such as the olympics! theres just too many $$$$$$ involved, so yes hypocrisy is alive & well a

across this beautiful planet of ours, ordinary people around the world have much more that unites them than divides them, if their is an enemy it is the elite clique of govt- big business, who attempt to manipulate the masses for their power-money plays, some use more ”persuasive” methods than others to subjugate their populations, but usually with tacit approval from their ”business” partners overseas.
how will we stem the tide of slavery that is re emerging in the 21st century?

Add another two more ”Multi party chaoticocracy” country onto the chaotic list.
Pakistan and Thailand 

ZL Lin: Why do you think everyone is against China? It is not a question of for or against? This sounds as stupid as George W. Bush saying if you are not for us you are against us. That people protested about the Beijing being granted the Olympics does NOT mean that they did not want the Olympics to be a success. Human rights is not binary and neither is success. Success in your mind seems to only be economics. A very American attitude, which makes me think you would fit in just fine in subur

Kobe: First, thanks for confirming the veracity of the article. I pointed the story out about the two ladies in China because this is a discussion group about whether peaceful protests should be banned. For every one story like this about the Olympics there were many more about how great the Olympics were and how happy most people in China were about it. They showed plenty of Chinese “volunteers” happily cleaning the streets and being good hosts. I think this is great that people are willin

Okay, it appears that they are now abbreviating the posts. 
Kobe: I would like to pose a question. Why do you see me or anyone as an “enemy” for posting the story about the two old ladies? I do not view ZL Lin as the enemy for bringing up Wen Ho Lee and I certainly would not view anybody as the enemy for bringing up Gitmo? Again, this is a discussion about peaceful protest. 

no we dont think peacefull protests should be banned because its not very good with violent protests where inisent people gets hurt just because they were outside at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I think they should get rid of the death penalty particularly when the authority doesn’t want to share their information and statistic’s with the rest of the population. It seems like they only use it for more political power and not just when it is necessary- I’m not saying that it’s ever necessary to use the death penalty. I believe that no man deserves to die like that when they’ve made some mistakes, it’s only human to make mistakes and they should get another chance. It seems like they only use it for political power cause it only hurts the poor and week people those who nothing can do those without money. For example the people that do have money doesn’t suffer from it cause they have connections and they have the money to pay them of.   (There could also be another reason why the Chinese people still use death penalty, they are many people in china and they could be afraid of being to many so they use death penalty to keep order) 

This discussion is now closed.

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