What human rights legacy for the Beijing Olympic Games?

Should people be detained without the chance of a trial?

In May 2006, as a way to “clean up” the city’s image before the Olympics, the Beijing authorities planned to extend the use of a form of punitive detention without trial called Re-education Through Labour (RTL). People can be held without trial for up to four years for offences such as unlawful advertising, unlicensed taxis, unlicensed businesses, vagrancy and begging. It is also used to detain those engaged in peaceful protest or dissent.

What is your view on Re-education Through Labour?

This discussion is now closed.

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Can we really criticise this when in the UK we have just voted for 42 days detention without charge, and guantanomo bay retains people for years without charge?

To Forgotten Traveller -

Firstly, it’s not a matter of finger-pointing and saying who’s better, who’s not. Neither is it about ‘you did this, hence you can’t say this about me’.

It’s about basic human rights. If something has gone wrong, something should be said and done about it.

Secondly, it’s not about China versus UK, or China versus anyone else. Let’s focus on the problems and the country, what should be done about it and what can be done about it. 

Thirdly, the extension of the use of RTL goes against the very basic promise the Beijing officials themselves made! (The promise being that the human rights situation would improve). If the government itself dared to make such a statement, it should live up to its promise and know that people have high expectations of it. and that if it fails to live up to its promise, people can see it for themselves, and will talk.

Lastly, those practises that you had pointed out would have their own detractors as well.

Glad to see an internet debate where differing opinions, even pointed ones, can be stated without attempts to offend personally in the process. [no sarcasm included or intended] Hope it stays that way.
 
I agree with both joshua & Forgotten Traveller to a degree. A government loses its credibility when it criticizes others for similar practices or legislation it utilizes itself.
On the other hand, there’s no reason one as a person cannot criticize one’s own government and a “foreign” government at the same time.
 

The answer is yes. If you look around the world, everyone is doing it.

Yes, indeed. These practices are unacceptable.. anywhere!

Besides I would like to empasize the importance of transparency, in this case also for the Chinese central government to check whether their system is not being misused for ambigious purposes..

RTL fails on many counts - primarily that there is not trail, but also because that in detention itself people are ill-treated. The system has been much criticized in China, not least by NPC members who feel it undermines the rule of law - something that the government is trying to emphasize. It seems likely that RTL will be reformed but the disappointing thing is how it has been used in the run up to the Olympics. Thousands of people have been removed from Beijing - some into RTL camps. I understand that the Chinese authorities want to show the world a good image but feel they have really shot themselves in the foot with the way they have gone about it. People don’t expect a country to be perfect and in trying to produce a sanitized image they have violated peoples rights and presented their worst side. This is not new - ‘cleaning’ a city before a big international event happens relatively often, so China is not alone [though the scale of the clean up is huge]. I think the sports organizing bodies should take some responsibility by having agreements with hosting cities that certain standards should be adhered to - just as they do with the environment.

It seems that every nation in the world should agree to a consistent standard on how human beings are to be treated.  China is blatant about arresting people for activities that are considered to be free speech in most major civilized nations, but certainly not the only nation that oppresses the freedoms of its own citizenry. 

It is difficult to hold China accountable for its abuses of its own citizenry as well as Tibetans, especially with places like Guantanomo Bay casting shadows on the cause of justice and freedom.  

We need to have leadership for all nations with a consistent dedication to uphold the rule of law pertaining to civil rights and human rights, both the spirit of the law as well as the letter of the law, and what we are getting is selective support and selective interpretation.  

This movement for justice for the world is ongoing.  China is a big issue now and will continue to be in the future.  

If the Chinese government ever became a freedom-loving democracy that allowed its own citizens basic civil liberties (freedom of expression, freedom of religion, freedom to assemble, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizure, freedom from unjust incarcerations) then China would undoubtedly become the most powerful nation on the earth with extremely powerful influence on the rest of the world.  

The history of China and its past weaknesses created the economic and social conditions for communism, but that is changing rapidly and soon the citizenry will be uplifted enough to collectively realize that they are strongly united now and those conditions that required such extreme action have now long passed.   When this realization takes hold in most of China  along with the knowledge that their nation can become the most powerful democracy on the face of the entire earth, it will motivate the Chinese people to change their form of government. 
I think the Beijing Olympics, like Tiananmen Square, is a major step toward realizing the future of China in the world - to be the greatest democracy of freedom lovers on the face of the earth.

This is my  hope for China - the land of the rising sun.

Until that happens, everyone continues to struggle and agitate for justice and freedom. 

Gena,
China is not the land of the rising sun. Japan is.

yes, we are all familiar with china’s history, what china is capable of doing and what we want china to do. but unless we actually get our voices out there, it isn’t going to make an actual difference, is it? i’m sure everybody here has been involved in such discussions, whether online or with your friends or at college or work or wherever, but the bottom line is that the world needs to make china hear us. whether we have negative things or positive things to say, there is no denying that china could be a little more open to talks , with either tibet or the united nations or anybody else. we are all familiar with the history of china and the current affairs concerning it…..there isn’t any point going over it again and again. maybe i’m just saying that because i’m here in india and  being china’s neighbour has made the situation quite clear….it’s just that the part where people are supposed to take action is a little elusive.
anybody else here from asia?
what is your opinion?

i meant is everybody here from the uk or something?
not being racist or anything, it;s just that being in india or other countries with a high population of tibetan refugees really lets you see the situation . not that the others know nothing…..
i guess you people know what i’m trying to say.

We are talking about Guantanamo Bay here are we, or is it
Christmas Island possibly Great Britain. Are any of you old enough or knowledgeable enough to know what Tibet was like
before? Minimum working age for children, percentage of the
population banned from having an education, etcetera etcetera.
People who live in glasshouses should desist from throwing stones and totally biased organisations like Amnesty, Friedrich
Naumann Foundation and Radio Free Asia should be confined to glasshouses.

It is time all govrnments were open and honest. Leading by exmple, not by laying down the law to others. This includes thos who have nuclear weapons dictating to others that they cannot. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

js-i’m from china. and yes, china hears all of your opinions.
Although Amnesty International is banned in china, I’m sure the state agencies and academic institutions are all aware of your opinions and can access all this information with ease.
 

lets cut the crap!!
”re-education through labour” is 21st century slavery. we’re not about whos got the best ideological framework for a harmonious society, lets focus on a little human dignity, ”respect for life is free”  choose it!!

mbz,
i’m glad to hear that information is accesible, but as somebody who lives in china, do you think the government is open to looking at opinions objectively?
i ‘ve only heard negative things about china, from tibetans that i know, from the media and lots of other sources….and if i’m not mistaken, a chinese citizen was detained recently for speaking up for tibet. is that an objective view? and i would also like to add that even though i’ve got both good things and bad things to say…i think china has made a lot of progress and from a purely technological point of view, is a good choice to host the olympics.

and with regard to what tibet was like before…it was a theocracy, like all other countries in the world started out. even china’s beginnings can be traced to religion and tradition right? so it is obvious that there were problems that could be corrected by democracy, but i personally see no reason why tibet had to be invaded. i’m not saying this because i’m biased or anything, i’m sure everybody here is familiar with the history of tibet’s invasion, including the seventeen point agreement laid down by china’s then government. what about that? why were the monasteries destroyed? more importantly, why has nobody been allowed to see the 14th panchen lama? he disapeared at the age of six and there is considerable proof that he is infact the world’s youngest political prisoner. i feel very strongly about this particular incident, because anybody who can detain ( i say this after reading through millions of reuters reports and united nations reports and journals, i’m not biased) a six year old innocent child cannot possibly have any excuses.
i’ve witnessed walks and protest marches speaking up for the 14th panchen lama’s rights and demanding information about his whereabouts…nothing has been done so far. i’m sorry if i sound a little extreme but i get a little touchy when it comes to children. and yes, i know the panchen lama isn’t a child anymore.

to lambo:
economic progresss isn’t the only kind of progress a country needs. i’ve been reading up on human rights in china for a few years now, out of interest and it seems to me that the government should really look at the welfare of the people and not just prosperity. if you’re an economics student you will know what i’m talking about.
this looks like the cultural revolution all over again…because the bottom line is that the people are not happy.
i think the world could take a few pointers from bhutan… gross national happiness.

to JS
Sorry you are wrong and possibly an economic theorist. Well I am probably much older than you and I havent been reading up on human rights for a few years I have lived in Asia for close
on 20 years on and off including for the past 6/7 years China.
I speak Japanese and Mandarin in addition to my native English,
the Queens that is not the bastardised version. Unless for some reason I only live with, know, talk with, play golf with and
generally socialise with the happy people as far as I can make
out the majority of Chinese people are as happy as any other Nation. There is a lot wrong in China but probably no more than in America, the U.K., Europe or anywhere else you wish to
mention. Dont start bringing up democracy because the U.S. has turned that into a dirty word over the past 4/5 decades.
You must also remember that Chinese have been natural capitalists for what 4000 years irrespective of who has been in
charge and the vast majority still are. People in China have great power since the advent of the mobile telephone, much more than the democratic West would have you believe. Look up any website that covers what happened when the Taiwanese
tried to build an ethynol plant at Xiamen - incidentally my
favourite city in Asia and one that even the Americans will tell you is possibly the cleanest, greenest city on the planet . I can
vouch for it because thats where I spend most of my time in
China. Look up Amoy Magic on the net - he is American a
professor at Xiamen University. As I say China has a lot of problems not least those pushed by biased organisations such as Amnesty Intl, Radio Free Asia and the Friedrich Naumann
Foundation. All basically puppets of Washington.
As I said I am not an economics student as I progressed a bit further than that. I was what some euphamistically call a multi
national CEO and believe welfare follows prosperity.
Gross National Happiness is all well and good provided one has
eaten! Instead of knocking and reading people should try travelling, visiting and talking. Might get a few surprises.
regards.

hey lambo
just remember, those chinese citizens who aren’t having a nice time of it because of their political, social, religious or humanitarian views, they have hopes, dreams & aspirations too.
they suffer for speaking the truth about injustice, they have the courage of their convictions. & they can still smile!!

The US has set a perfect example in Guantanamo Bay for developing countries like China to follow (actually I seriously doubt China’s situation could be any worse than Guantanamo Bay )

Cadgee - Is that so and what about the 10s of thousands of
South American citizens who didnt have a nice time of it because they actually voted - democratically - for Governments that the West - particularly America didnt like. Have you any idea how many democratically elected Governments have been
brought down since the second World war? I dont think any by
China. The Chinese do smile because their home situation is nowhere near as bad as the West would have you believe. They have much more freedom than blacks had in the United States even a decade ago for instance.

US have been setting the perfect example of detention without trial.
Regarding Gauntanamo Bay center, most of the detainees are shut there based on groundless suspicion, assume terrorist or assume to be working for terrorist group. This is violation of the basic Human Rights.
US has to clean their backyard first.

insightful comments.
well, there isn’t much i can do except reading and researching, because i’m still a student and you’re probably older than i am because i’m not a major yet, so yeah. i’m not a theorist or anything, just a student who likes reading a good bit outside my textbooks. i get news from lots of sources outside my own country , even though i’ve always lived in india till now i’ve made it a point ot know certain things.
look up the 17 point agreement made between china’s then governemnt and the tibetan leaders during the invasion. look at the condition of tibet today. sure, you are more travelled than i am, but you’re in xiamen or wherever but i’ve got first hand accounts of how tibet has become today. a friend of mine couldn’t get a job in lhasa even though he was fully qualified, but he didn’t know mandarin. there have been many accounts of buddhist monasteries being destroyed during the invasion as well.
have you ever heard of a book called ‘blood on the snow’? it’s the true story of a monk who was jailed in tibet for many years. he mentions that the inmates got brownie points by reporting pubic signs of religious devotion in others. this way, they got better facilities. the author says that while he was washing his hands after a meal, he happened to flick his hand to get rid of the water. somebody reported that he was performing buddhist rituals in that manner and he was punished for it. and i think i’m old enough to know that that is infact, brutal .
now i’m not against the chinese people or anything, but i strongly feel that the governemnt needs to make a few good changes. like releasing the 14th panchen lama , for instance. i’m sure you are familiar with his story.
and i also think that there should be more freedom with regard to the masses as well. there was an incident where some students in hongkong protested against the government themselves.
it’s not like other countries don’t have human rights violations on their records, but this discussion is about china.
as one of the potential superpowers, i think that china oufght to make these reforms fast enough to avert disasters.

‘The state and other oppressive institutions are not threatened by Marxist, fanatics etc. but by people who refuse to conform to any hierarchy whatsoever. The most politically threatening act against the state and other established orders is the act that refuses to set up another hierarchical frame-work, the act that refuses to let itself be coded.’
From ‘On An(archy) and schizoanalysis’ by Rolando Perez.

Reeducation through labor allows people who repeatatively commit minor crime to be detain in a relatively free enviroment. It help to rehabitate people branwashed by cults, drug adicts, religious fanatics etc. They then are released without a criminal record and can led a normal life. Some have even become government official.  

So far Multi-party democracy has created chaos everywhere from India to Kenya teven Mongolia. In India there are so many political parties it is a joke. In many countries, too much time is spend on political infighting then actually helpin the poeple that vote them in. In Thailand a popular PM was ousted by opposition party. In Taiwan the 2 parties are constantly fist fighting inside their parliment so much so that it has become “normal and boring”. In the mean time the country suffer. The situation in Malaysia is also going doen the drain with Anwar VS Badawi. In the meantime Malaysia becomes worst and worst. 

In US it takes money to win election. Candidates always advertise their campaign funds to intimidate their opponent. They spend so much time in between election raising money for the next election that they have little time to help the people. Each year the cost of election goes up and up exponentially. In the end it is the corporation that elects not the people.  

So that is why China is developing a single party democracy.

I dont think it’s really fair to say what is happening in GITMO is the same thing that is happening in Beijing. Its seems that the Chinese are holding ‘undesirables’ for the duration of the games, so as to cast an favorable image to the world.
The detentions described seemed to motivated by image and politics whereas the GITMO detentions seem to motivated by security, either real or precieved.
China brought the attention on itself by bringing the Olympics. I feel like now they are being too defensive with all this critism.
I mean what do they think will happen if people are free to speak there mind in public?
I just wish they were not so defensive, and maybee could just take the critism like a mature state would, to at least respond to these human rights concerns.

So js you know someone who wanted a job in Lhasa! and failed
because they didnt speak Mandarin. Well how much chance do
you think a non English speaker would have of landing a job in
the U.K., America, Australia or Canada for example no matter
how qualified they were. Your friend may well have got a job in Tibet washing up somewhere, as a non English speaker might get a job washing up in London or New York but a QUALIFIED
person - a professional wanting a position in a Country where he doesnt speak the language - really pull the other one.
How can you invade your own Country?
Whos word do we have for it that Blood on the Snow is true?
Presumably you know that any publicity is good publicity. I am
sure your intentions are admirable albeit somewhat naive but until you get the chance to go out and see things for yourself sometimes is better to stay somewhat more quiet and absorb things.
Incidentally to end do you know or have you read any accurate
stories of the treatment of children in Tibet prior to your so called “invasion”? Some interesting stories available on that
subject especially minimum working age, who could get to learn to read and write and some others not quite so pleasant.

lambo
no argument from me on South America, but thats for another forum, this ones on human rights in China, where external espionage & insurgency are still juvenile.
you know I just can’t operate on the premise that, because some Chinese are doing much better these days, the rest will automatically follow, (a few dark clouds on that horizon) & then a minority who don’t fall into line!! cop a belting, labour camp, torture, is the price you pay for so called progress.
falun gong practitioners, who do peacefull mind body exercises in the Chinese tradition, fanatically & brutally persecuted, organ harvested, vilified like sub humans by the Chinese gov’t.
insidious, almost surreal, just down the road from your next olympic venue.

Should people be detained without trial?

Lets look at the Universal declaration of human rights shall we?

Oh look.. i think it says they shouldnt and if we are protected by the UDHR why should people in China be exempt?

To cadgee. please go find out more about the leader of Fa Lun Gong. His name id Li Hong Zhi. Li Hong Zhi do not even believe he and his followers are humans. So they are aliens from another universe. So he does not believe in “Human” rights. 

To cadgee, if you really beleive what the FLG publish in their newspaper, then tell me how ignorent you are.  FLG TV and newspaper are all funded by quasi US goverment. They are a cult and just because they are againt the CPC, the are showered with awards by western government. Nobody reads thier paper. With all the millions of dollars given to them, they could not even manage any sucessfully protest any where in the world. They are Far Long Gone.

To jacobcurtus  - The CPC may go overboard in maintaining social and political stability. As evidence all around the world show that unlimited freedom of expresion which by the way also allow you to incite inter ethic and racial hatred can easily degenerate into riots which the media would certaining love to fan and cheer on. Already months before the Olympic the internet chatter was already fill with groups going all out to disrupt and create chaos and riot during the Olympic. Especailly the TYC. So if CPC error on the side of social and political stability so be it. Better safe then be sorry afterwards. Some people in China that fight for human rights may think rightly what they are doing is good. But what they may not know is that many external anti-China forces they may just wnat to use them for a different agenda.

ZL Lin
falun gong people bleed, does that make them human?
falun gong people believe differently to you, does that make them worthy of persecution?
falun gong people are non violent, does that make them worthy targets for violence?
sorry ZL Lin, we are worlds apart!! you need to experience other cultures before you judge them too harshly. ”try a little compassion”

To cadgee. China is still very much a developing country with 1.2 billion people to feed. The priority is poverty, education, economic wealth. And China needs political and social stability to acheive these. Once the majority of Chinese are wealthly enough, perhaps they can allow alien beings to topple a government and create chaos.  Or an actor to be a president or a stripper to be a mayor. then they can have all the political infighting they want. In the mean time the life and well being of the majority of Chinese is more important.

cadgee its good you aware there is a world far apart from you, you should take bit time to do more research about taking any piece of information you get from media.
 below is a link reported about falungong, it is performed by falungong practitioners, self immoltation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_self-immolation_incident
This is what this religion lead people to do. what do you think? remember its one a wikipedia, they say people in China can not visit wikipedia, so its mainly wrote by outsiders!

ZL Lin - Keep at it. There are none so blind as those who do not want to see, deaf as those who dont want to hear or as stupid as - well you know what I mean!
The Falun Gong are a subsidised group of trouble makers.
The Dalai Lama is a subsidised trouble maker. Tibet was an evil throw back to the middle ages when he was in charge.
The weegers (phonetic for some) are subsidised terrorists - freedom fighters to others.
Who subsidises these groups? Radio Free Asia - a free and
independent radio station who just happen to be paid for by
the U.S. Congress and headquartered in Washington. The Friedrich Naumann Foundation a German operation funded by the German Government but would you believe headquartered in where?? Washington. These two groups have only one object in mind and reason for their existence, that being to cause trouble in every Asian Nation from Japan to India. Divide and conquer which is the usual fall back for Nations with no policy just attitudes. China has many many problems but I think the main one is that China doesnt realise just how powerful it is. When Beijing was selected for the Games China should have told the World that there are laws in China and if any parts of the World didnt like some of the laws then dont turn up for the Games. Not much would have changed, the athletes would have arrived and also the politicians because any politician who wasnt around when one of his Countrymen or women won a medal would have had a short political life. Anyone who even hinted that they would cause trouble should be refused entry. From your last it is obvious you are an intelligent person so dont be browbeaten by well meaning but ignorant people. Continue to be proud of China , it is indeed a great Country and unfortunately for some destined to be much greater before very much longer. Stick at it
regards

ages

hey thinkagain
you should keep lambo under control, his passion run away with him, he reveals to much!!

Lambo , estern culture are general very pessive, its due to the traditional influence like buddhism and taoism or hinduism etc.
Chinese people are unlikely to provoke others first because they usually busy with make living, after all its a country with percaptical GDP ranking  below world average, people do not have interests to envolve in politics when life is still is a problem,
but  if one day you see  Chinese people standing up talking and responding , that is because they are mistreated so badly or pressed too hard, they have no choice but fight back.
If you are real a caring person, a compassionate person, please stand on their view point and think, why so many Chinese inside and outside China getting so angry about this kind of debate and campaign?

during olympic torch relay, many oversea chinese around world in particular those in developed country like us, uk, france organized large scale demostration to support beijing, see this for detail
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Olympic_Torch_Relay

and I have read one of the major US anthropology text book ,which is  written by a white american, say that  Chinese in US is  the best group of imigration, they have higher than average level of education, very low level criminal rate.very good citizen overall.. those oversea Chinese all under ‘free press’ in thoese country, why they responding those issues they same way? do you think those oversea Chinese are also brian washed by the government in mainland China? 

They know both languages, they see the story from both worlds, they know the truth better than you.

If the parents really love the Child , they will let the child choice his life. They know its the child’s life, not theirs.

talking about the human rights,  one of basic freedom should be the freedom of choice of the life. Interference is not compatible with the spirit of human rights.

They dont need you to like it, it is the their Choice, their life, if you respect human rights, please respect their choice.

Otherwise dont even talking about human rights, coz you dont really understand what it is.

Look at the attitude of UN on this issue
the world does not only belong to those who has more money and power

Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity by United Nation: ‘Cultural rights are an integral part of human rights, which are universal, indivisible and interdependent.’ Full Declaration: http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0012/001271/127160m.pdf

Thinkagainagain - why dont you? With all due respect.
Possibly you read too much but dont totally comprehend?
Possibly that is why you have a few problems conveying your
thoughts and feelings. You constantly contradict yourself.
I would respect human rights if:
I knew what it meant because there doesnt seem to be a
Universal understanding of the expression.
If you compare the number of Chinese who protested
during the torch relay and in particular exclude the Tibetans with a particular axe to grind, against the number of Chinese
who were happy for their Country you are talking of an
incredibly small percentage. I think you may have alluded to
this but I wasnt absolutely sure.
Please you shouldnt compare the brain power of almost any
immigrant group to second or third generation Americans as
that is asking for a rude response. You do know that in three
different surveys carried out in New York in the past year over
50 percent of people questioned either didnt know what 9/11 meant or “didnt know what month the attack on the WTC took
place” Dont stretch incredulity.
Also you should remember that people who migrate will never want anyone, even themselves, to consider the possibility that
they have made a mistake and will always shout loudest in
defence of their new homeland. They are like reformed smokers, you just cant shut them up.
As far as knowing both languages if you read a little slower you
might recall and possibly comprehend that I speak Mandarin and Japanese in addition to my native English. Thats the Queens version not the bastardised version.
Free press! If you seriously believe there really is any such thing
anywhere you really do have a problem. It matters not where you live the press is slanted towards the Country’s views, the media owners view, the sponsors view, thats real life. Accept it.
Finally Eastern culture is PASSIVE , thats one thing we can agree on and that is why other parts of the World try to stuff their
one size fits all attitude down Asian throats.
Regards.
p.s. Dont let other people stir you up. Let them respond to what
they dont agree with, if that is they have the ability.

Lambo, quickly, you refer to Uighurs as “subsidised terrorists”. A bit of a gross stereotype don’t you think? Not a very educated opinion, although you seem like a smart guy.
 
Human Rights are enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and the UDHR’s legally binding Covenants (chiefly the ICCPR and the ICESCR). As a legally binding document, human rights are as unambiguous as you would expect any legal document to be. Not even the Bangkok Declaration and subsequent Asian Values debate could change this fact. Trying to lesson the importance of the individual is purely instrumental on the part of often authoritarian governments.
 
As for Free Press, give me a press influenced by exogenous forces, e.g. marketing and moguls, than a press that chiefly exists to support governmental propaganda any day!
 

A cunning-linguist you may be; A master-debater most definitely.

To ZL Lin:
One thing I would like to remind you.
In your messageon Aug. 2nd, you seem to recognise that TAIWAN, with her own Parliament, elections, parties and ‘fighting’ MPs, is a completely different country from CHINA.
Probably it’s a good news for you that your government has blocked this website and would’t care about what you had said here; otherwise, …
Take care^^

Jimba - second try as this freedom loving organisation rejected
my first attempt with some facetious excuse.
If you are unaware of the source of encouragement and finance
for all the Western Chinese “Freedom fighters” little point
continuing this topic.
You lose me with your comments on Human Rights as I cannot
connect HR with documents no matter who signed them and
where. Totally unimpressed.
Lessening ( note the spelling ) the importance of the individual is the way of every Government even your so called democratic
Governments, that is until election time comes around.
Please understand I am not knocking true democracy but what
has been substituted for it since the end of WW2. Personally
I think democracy died when Athens and Sparta fell out.
Now by exogenous do you mean outside because I was under the impression that exogenous had more to with orgasms than
the context in which you were using the word. Anyway what is
the difference between a press dictated to by a Government and
a media organisation that toadies up to a Government and
follows their line without brooking any arguments? I am not
having a go at the Murdoch Empire but have you ever watched Fox News? You could be excused for thinking that George Bush was the next Pope or Dalai Lama. I think in fact there is a
difference, that being that the so called free press is far more
subtle in thought and aggressive in action than authoritarian
Government propaganda. I further think the use of words is
far more important than many people realise, take for instance
the questions in this debate. I believe them to be couched in such a fashion that they lead the reader to a set conclusion.
The power of the written word can be both incredibly powerful
and influential as in the press and utterly useless, as in your Human Rights Declarations.
Regards.

Lambo – I can understand why you would be unimpressed with the UN - I worked with UNHR and am well qualified to agree with you there (If that’s what you are referring too) - but I am a stanch believer in human rights and what they’ve been created to protect.
Infact, I believe human rights were created to do exactly what you claim governments continuously attempt to flaunt: the individual. This has always been the tension in democracies, but it is usually kept in check with strong civil societies. In countries with a weak civil society – read China (A socialist democratic state) – human rights often act as the bulwark between these polarities. When human rights find hostile governments in these situations… problems arise.
Today’s form of democracy is a slight on Plato’s “rule by the governed”, but a lot has happened and much more is known since the fall of Athens. The old war dog, Churchill, puts it flippantly, “Democracy [today] is the worst form ofgovernment except for all those others that have been tried”. I tend to agree, but I digress.
Regarding the word exogenous; in the sciences it is chiefly used in biology to refer to matter growing or originating from outside an organism. In the humanities and social sciences the word relates to an external group (media corporations) or society.

Words can be tricky things, as you have noted with my usage of the word lessen, but etymology is often considered antithetical to law and great effort is taken to eschew obfuscation. This is made even trickier when you have to translate international human rights law into world languages; but it has been done, and it has been proven successful insofar as the incumbent is willing to embrace the spirit of human rights.
Toodles.
 

lambo,
what do you mean by ‘invade your own country’?
….many historical records prove that tibet was indeed an independent country. check anywhere you want. china’s claim that all regions sould be unified with the’motherland’ is something i really don’t understand. if they’re talking about the buddhist way of life, buddhism came from my country and the last time i checked, india hasn’t placed any claim on tibet.
and i don’t think people get ANYTHING out of publishing stories about the suffering of individuals…nothing at all.
and its true that i probably know very little of what is actually going on, but i try and keep up. like i said, i can’t just drop out of high school. but i do think that whatever i have come acroos so far has SOME validity and requires attention. probably nothing will be gained by boycotting the olympics, but this can’t be neglected.

to jimba:
is it worth working with the UNHCR ?
if you’re seriously interedted in human rights i mean…….whats the point if nobody does anything?
just wanted to know if there is any organization in the world that does everything it says it does.

To Jimba - China has improve the life of 300million individual. That is the bottomline that Chinese understand. Western Human rights advocate only have speech after speech. It looks good but they cannot show any bottomline.
Proverb: Action speaks louder then words. 

No not at all.
china is turning to be UK as a colonialist

This is totally wrong\

To js. The British annex South Tibet into British India. When India became independant India incorporated South Tibet into Arunachal Pradesh. South Tibet has always been part of Tibet and Tibet has been part of China since the Yuan Dynasty.

To Zi Lin:
Should people be jailed for stability for a crime they have not committed yet. The word we have for it is called ThoughtCrime.
It is unjust to jail people who have not committed crime for the sake of ’stability.’

No question about it. Everyone needs a fair trial! Including a lawyer.

Detention without trial is a rude government policy, Th Amnesty International should advise Chines Government to put the human right on the first priority on their policy. Chines Government will be successfully  to develop the right of the populations if the Government puts the Human Right on their policy priority, so, China shouldn’t be left behind the other countries in Asia or the world to respect the human right such as most countries in the planet’s policy.

Lambo - Amnesty as puppet of Washington?  An utterly ridiculous statement to make!

Detention without trail is only used if National security is threaten. It prevents external forces taking advantage of the system of law and order to ouverthrow the government. Many countries in the world have such laws.

In Malaysia it is call the internal security act or ISA. It was usewd against the communist and People who had been detained under this law has even later become leaders and have continued to maintain this law because it is necessary. ISA was inherited from the British.

’system of law’?
what system?

js, you may not know but in Singapore LKY used similar detention laws to prevent the communist from taking over the country. The communits would used the courts and laws of the country to create chaos. By protest, riots, then used the long process of the court to delay and protray themselve as victims. That is why even today  Singapore has ISA. It does play a role. When your country sovereignty is being threaten you have to play a different game. 

but its not like the communists are a minority group who are being opressed in any way….in refernce to your example. true, you have to protect your country’s sovereignty, but dob’t you have to give importance to all communities? you can’t just ignore somebody’s rights.

how will i know that my comment has been received? I can’t find it in the list of comments. please let me know if you have received it or no so that i can submit it again thanks

The right to a fair trial is one of the most important right of a person in detention. Having noticed the high rate of illegal detention ie people detained without  being charged or without a trial, one of the regional system of protection of human rights  have made it a fundamental right. It means that nothing not even war or any impredictable situation in a country could justify its violation. We can easily understand how essential it is for a detainee to know the charges against him and to be given the possibility to defend himself  before a court.If not ,it is an opened door to all sort of abuses such as illegal detention which can not be accepted and must be denounced as we do on this forum.
People in detention are given the possibility to learn a job in prison in order to help and facilitate their reinsertion once they are freed from prison and also to socialise them.Some learn sowing , others carpentry work, craft, farming etc…The difference betwen this  and what is done in China is that those in china don’ t choose to do it and are somehow forced to do it.The difference lies in the motive for which such is done. Most likely in China it is a penalty . By doing so,
 the government is practicing a kind of forced labor which must be denounced.
Beyond China, i would like to use this tribune to point out to most of african countries where we still have many persons detained without trial.  

This discussion is now closed.

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