What human rights legacy for the Beijing Olympic Games?

Is the Internet free for all to use?

Google launched a self-censoring Chinese search engine. Microsoft has a portal in China which blocks the use of words such as ‘freedom’. Yahoo gave the Chinese authorities user account information which contributed to the conviction of at least two individuals for their legitimate and peaceful use of the Internet.

Is this business or an unacceptable restriction of freedom of expression?

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considering how much Google influence how we access information, it has a tremendous obligation to all internet users (i.e. not just their shareholders) to uphold and safeguard internet freedom. I.e. not setting precedence of poor practice, not developing the technology that allows states to monitor, control and temper with how people access information.

Otherwise, what happens in China today is what’s going to happen to the rest of the world tomorrow.

The internet was designed as something which was by default almost impossible to control - somthing which would survive even a nuclear war, always finding ways round to re-route. In theory surely new software could be developed that would always undermine attempts such as by Google and Microsoft to dictate how it is used.
However its not just the Chinese who are fighting against this underlying chaos in the internet - the west’s fear of terrorism, peadophiles, etc, are all driving for greater control, all in the name of the safety of the people.

From Google’s point of view it’s a business decision. Google only has a 27% share of the Chinese search market. It’s beaten hands down by Baidu. I think it’s up to Google how they market their products (advertising) in China. I’m more worried about Yahoo handing over users’ personal details - that to me is unacceptable. However, this isn’t a Chinese issue, Viacom are trying to force Google/YouTube to hand over personal details of users who have posted apparently copyright material.

Would it be acceptable for such companies to provide names and locations of Zimbabwean democracy activists to Mugabe or his thugs? I think not.

I am all for net nutrality. Check out this clip on the debate that is currently raging -  http://foureyedmonsters.com/neutrality/

What is AI’s position on net neutrality?

Asha 

“Is this business or an unacceptable restriction of freedom of expression?”
along the same lines with Mr Joe, i’d say it’s both. it’s business AND unacceptable restriction of flow of information.
in my opinion, one of the biggest challenges of human rights organizations now & in the near future is to shed light on the complex ways government & business are tied together, and find ways to make business accountable for its actions.
 

I think there are two different issues in this question. Should Yahoo! have given up the data? It certainly should have resisted more - something that I believe they admit now. However, it stikes me that legally they would have had to give this up eventually. The more pressing issue here for me is what the Chinese authorities did with this info. The other side of the question is companies trading off international human rights standards of freedom of expression against investment opportunities. In reality they will go for investment as long as they feel it does not damage their business elsewhere. And my feeling in this particular case is that most people don’t feel strong enough about it to apply the pressure required to make them to lose that investment. As such the question I would ask is, how do you make companies adopt a strategy that works to reform the country they invest in?

Google, Yahoo and all search engines, as well as any other website are compromised to offer the exact same service and respect to human rights of the users on ANY country. It is unacceptable for those who give away information to third parties only because of what they search online. China has the right to read, write, express, search ANYTHING, just as any of us do.

China’s Great Fire Wall is absolutely an offence to our right of information freedom. The government is feared of outside opinions and is trying to cover them all up. This is extremely unappropriate and annoying as useful websites such as the Wikipedia is entirely blocked, leaving us unable to find the useful information we need. I am a Chinese citizen and I am experiencing this painful blockage.
 

-vincentleung
totallly agreed. so am I a chinese citizen
also note that the government blocks access for fearing even more pressure arising in situations in which pressure is already intense. But I suppose it is overall a bad strategy to distrust its own people.
We however can circumvent this by downloading a small proxy server program made by falungong…….called “wujie”
http://www.wujie.net/ －－－－－－IT’S FREE

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, even those we may find unpleasant.

mbz, are you accessing this in China? The trouble is - how many people in China would be bothered with beating “The Man” (in this case, the Wall)? It’s quite unfortunate for the government itself to block websites like this - its people can defend it!
I know other people in China using Tor (http://www.torproject.org/) and there are good tips here too: http://deibert.citizenlab.org/blog/_archives/2007/10/10/3282831.html

I live in the United States, and I believe that the entire Internet should be accessable to everybody, with the exception of child pornography websites which should either be blocked, or removed from the Internet entirely.

To Banjaminetcetc : we know you live in the United States you
tell us. What you do not explain is how you type with one hand
permanently on your heart and the other presumably on the
Bible! Good stuff.

I’m a UK citizen, and I take an interest in the Chinese’ governments activities. The internet censorship in the country is destroying all freedoms people may have had. An article was on the BBC news just a few seconds ago, showing the internet access. Apparently, when they don’t want you to view something, it is very slow to load the load the “This page cannot be displayed sign, but for websites they want you to visit, such as the one of the Chinese Communist Party one, load straight away.

This deliberate banning of anti-communist and general information sites surely breaches Human Rights laws such as Freedom of speech, and seems to be to cut off Chinese people from the free world.

Companies such as Yahoo! Google and Microsoft should not be helping with the censorship in this country, why these well known, multi national, trusted companies are helping this harsh regime is no secret. Surely, money comes into it somehow, but what kind of companies are these if they are giving names to governments so they can prosecute innocents?
The entire thing is frankly, disgusting, and I can’t put it any other way. Not using fancy words, especially when I feel scatterbrained as I do now.

to the chinese citizens here who say they are suffering due to censorship…my deepest sympathies.
i’m from india and we don’t have anything like that here….well, not yet anyway. the only things that are banned are those that may seem religiously offensive, and we can’t afford to have that in india; religion is the biggest catalyst for chaos here.
first, the press and now the internet. can we say anything at all? it seems to me that the people most afraid of criticism are the ones banning it. i stress again, the government was created for the people- and it should cater to their needs first. freedom of speech and expression, most importantly.
and isn’t the chinese government against the falungong and falun dafa? won’t people get into trouble for using their websites?

Enter your comment here Censorship is wrong! Rather than rolling over, Google should have said “No!”. It’s policies, including keeping search info for 2 years) leaves much to be desired. It’s obviously greed focused and has little redeeming about it. The problem is its monolithic size has a stranglehold on Internet searches…just as Microsoft does in other areas. Both need to be brought down to size. The best way is to find and use other means for Web involvement…like other search engines and ditching Internet Explorer, etc. As far as the Olympics is concerned, this is as much a travesty as when the old USSR Olympics…one the US boycotted. China may be big, but a boycott could help focus on its flagrant abuse of its people and how it thumbs its nose at the rest of the world.

even if the olympics were boycotted by most of the important figureheads…which has a slim to none chance of happening, the most important thing is that china has immense trade influence over the US and the rest of the world. the US won’t give up trade with one of the world’s potential superpowers over an issue such as this. so, not only are the people violating human rights bad, those succumbing to pressure are equally worse.

Very good, ‘Is the Internet free for all to use?’ this is the exact question I want to ask AI, I posted one article on the death enalty section of this website, but the post was disapeared, Please anybody let me know why can AI deleting my post and the same time critises Chinese government for censor its citizen? what is the difference of these two behavior?

Below was my post.  

I will include the updated information from AI offical report, so if you want to delete it again please send me email explain why, your project staff K A has my email address.
——————————————————————————–
thinkagainagain - July 30th, 2008 Comment (offensive?)
The Campaign material of AI is unscientific
http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/death-sentences-and-executions-in-2007
AI only caculate the total amount of death penalty and publish a rank on basis of this. 
  
China is the most populous country in the world, roughly 1 in every 5 people in the world is Chinese, so if this country has a average level of execution, it would naturally be found on top of the list. In another words, if the level of execution in China is about average, 1 in 5 people executed should come from China. Just like 1 in 5 people die from traffic accident is from China, 1 in 5 women is from China, 1 in 5 man is from China, 1 in 5 intersex people is from China…China top the list of people die from traffic accident, China top the list of population of woman, China top the list of population of man, China top the list of population of intersex…
 
Do those statements tell people anything at all? No.
 
What should be compare it the amount of execution per capital. Do you have the data? Is China still on the top?
 
I have been working for animal rights on volunteer basis in the last 6 years. I believe the internal value of all sentience beings and I strongly support human rights. But please study more about social science and Math before launching your campaign, or your good intention would be used to stereotype and therefore discriminate one of the largest ethnic group in the world- this is also a form of very serious abuse of human rights.
 
Please quota data scientifically and intelligently. Do more research.
(I am doing an 12nations survey )
————————
Please stop listing a few, or even a hundred, seperate cases. Or put all those distrubing images on your propaganda,  Do you guys watching Criminal Investigation channel? Do you feel those crimes horrible? Will you then draw conclusion based on what you saw on CI that whole nation is bad as that? Of course you will not because you are intellegent, we know WE SHOULD NOT DRAW CONCLUSION based on A FEW CASES, even hundreds cases can means nothing when the total population is as large as 1.3billion, you can easilier catch some bugs if you want.
Instead we should use statistics to have a better understanding of the situation, unfortunetly AI campaign do not have a  good statistic as its support, it lead people to ask, since China is not the top offender, why launch campaign against it, why discriminate this nation? What is the reasons behind this action? I saw people say US has the largest prisoner population per capitcal in the world, if this is true, does this worth attention from anyone or AI at all? If you dismiss it as unimportant, can you please explain why.

I agree with you JS. T’would be but a token. But it could help FOCUS more attention than current press coverage; and boycotting Microsoft or Google could have an impact on them.

The censorship I find most annoying in China is the banning of Chinese Wikipedia.
Other than that, I mostly agree with the Chinese censorship of the media. Unlike Western countries, China’s population is gargantuan. The only country in the world that has China’s population and population density is India, and India is vastly underdeveloped in comparison.
China will relax it’s heavy handed controls when it’s ready for them. And when I say ready for them, I mean when economic forces pushes them to liberalize, just like it did during the 70s-80s.

I think the Chinese government has all the rights to filter child pornography, violent and evil contents

censorship is prevalent in US as well… all major media censor reports and comments in order to cater the audiences for more profits.  And the whitehouse is good at it as well.

Just read about the opening ceremony being released on Youtube - ironic really. At one end is youtube whilst at the other is the Chinese Government and its censorship. These Olympics will indeed be interesting. One thing is for sure though - there is no way they’ll get to see this site in China. Its called the Levitation Monitor and its hilarious and clever. You can check it out at
http://www.tibetpetition.com

But this isn’t about child pornography, or violent and evil content. It’s about removing all references to such things as the Tiananmen square protests or Tibet or Taiwan, about silencing inconvenient opinions and removing access to the world press.
 
Blocking Wikipedia, the BBC, all kinds of other news agencies, critical blogs and such is not, by any measure, blocking child pornography, nor violent and evil content.
 
As for censorship in the US, that’s comparing apples to oranges. No, I take that back, it’s comparing apples to spaceships. Not only is the difference in the order of magnitude staggering - there is nothing in the world that can compare to China’s ‘Golden Shield’ in that respect - it’s also of a very different quality. The Chinese government seeks to silence others, and control what information they have access to, while the White House and news media just pick their own words carefully. Well, in the case of the White House and Fox News, there may be some more shady business, but neither of even those prevent anyone from reading critical blogs or reading a critical paper or watching another news outlet and figuring out the truth - or whatever they want to believe - for themselves.
 
That’s not to say that the White House does nothing wrong (just look at Guantanamo Bay), nor that its information policy was perfect (or even good), but censorship? That’s pretty far from reasonable, still.

Censorship made by CCP is merely used for CCP’s control on Chinese people, negative information for its dictatorship and communication with the  world outside China.  In China I can not often access to web pages of Universities in USA and UK and many Taiwan websites even.

‘To tear down a factory or to revolt against a government or to avoid repair of a motorcycle because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes; and as long as the attack is upon effects only, no change is possible. The true system, the real system, is our present construction of systematic thought itself, rationality itself, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality which produced it is left standing, then, that rationality will simply produce another factory. If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the systematic patterns of thought that produced that government are left intact, then those patterns will repeat themselves in the succeeding government. There’s much talk about the system. And so little understanding.’
From ‘Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance’ by Robert Pirsig.

I think that the western media, with all its distortions, are making an unfair racket over the censorship issue. And no, I am not a “nationalist, oppressive communist”– just a student from Canada.  From the local reports, they portray China to be some horrific backwards “dictatorship” where monkeys run amok, biting people and strange foods such as scorpions shishkebobs are common.  Despite continuous assertations from both coaches and athletes that they don’t believe the smog to be the most significant issue, just the unbearable heat and humidity, reporters still fixate on the smog. It’s not something China can fix overnight– do you expect a city like New York to have the same pristine blue skies as a town out of North Carolina?  And I think undue, overexcessive criticism is actually detrimental– while constructive pressure is good, such as reduce pollution, this mad fixation is actually quite harmful. Despite having lower garbage/pollution produced per person than the US, Canada, France, Britain… etc, China has even made tremendous strides to cut cars on the roads in half. Plates with odd numbers drive on certain days, even numbers on the rest. Did the US, with all its glorious “freedom” and enthusiastic environmental concerns ever take measures like that to reduce emissions to meet Kyoto protocols? And why are Chinese athletes, who say “I’m proud to compete for my country” portrayed in western media as deranged, obsessive “nationalistic” citizes of a “communist regime”? Yes, China is officially communist. But its goverment and its people have embraced capitalism. They adore Western lifestyles and seek to emulate it. All my friends from Canada who have visited China have thoroughly enjoyed it as well. And that is what the Olympics should be about– having an open mind. However, I’m not surprised that the government has controls on the media with the way it trivializes important issues and distorts other facts. Does the goverment have faults? Definitely. Is every government official corrupt? No. Are some Chinese repressed? Of course. Just like citizens in every country. Is every Chinese person unhappy and miserable? Absolutely not. They love the internet.  Chinese people and the goverment aren’t like some weird, bizarre 4 headed monster you know. And yet the strange stories keep coming. Yesterday, one of the most prominent newspapers in Canada published a story about how people should be careful in China because of a ”fair number” of incidents of dog bites and monkey bites. It made it sound like stray dogs and monkeys just roam the streets and are a plausible danger. Truth is, you can’t even find pigeons in China. I”d be really hardpressed to find pet monkeys. And why is it that, when a star swimmer like Michael Phelps, who trains 7 days a week on an incredibly tough regimen is rewarded as “hard working”, “ferocious ambition, discipline…” meanwhile, Chinese athletes who work hard as portrayed as nationalist robots? So it’s called a noble “patriotism” when an American proclaims a love for his/her country, yet when a Chinese does the same, media automatically dismisses them as communist-brainwashed pawns? Sometimes, I just wish people would travel there to see the world of China for themselves, and add constructive criticism, but also be proud of the long way China has lifted so many out of poverty, and realize that change will come, but it does take some time. 

Is the internet free etc. Would imagine the people who have just lost millions in the ticket scam would say its very expensive!
Wonder if anyone in The Middle Kingdom lost any money - doubt it!!

No Internet sites should ever be blocked because of content, period.

oxdeadbeef, my posts on this forum is not about about child pornography, or violent and evil content,

but Amnesty International censored some of my posts!

I was answering to TibetVideos, thinkagainagain.
 
As for your comment, that depends on what year you’re looking at. In 2005, China was at the top of the list of executions per capita, but has since been overtaken by Iran. Keep in mind, however, that executions are a state secret in China, so it is quite likely that the number of executions that happened far exceeds the number of executions we know about. This may be the case in Iran also, which is why you can’t make reliable per-capita data on the whole ordeal.
 
That said, it is quite arguable what data is significant in this context. We’re not talking about traffic accidents here, which will indeed (tragically) yield more fatal injuries in a larger population, but about state-sanctioned murder. The existence of the death penalty does higher damage in China because China has a higher population. One can also make a point about what crimes and ‘crimes’ will get you executed; it is indeed quite dangerous to have an opinion in China - but I’d have to research some numbers before I do that, so as to not feed you nonsense.
 
The most important thing, though, is: A human life is not like money. You cannot say “Well, they have more people in China, so if the government kills more, that’s, relatively speaking, not so bad.” Well, you can say it, but the argument holds no merit.
 
As for deleted posts, I can’t help you with that. However, since it stayed the second time you posted it, it might be a technical mistake or something like that - amnesty isn’t known for censorship. Have you asked the site admins about it?
 

Lambo: I’ve read a few of your posts and you seem to support the work of the CCP. Fairplay, but where do you stand, as an American who enjoys a free internet, on internet censorship in China? Please enlighten us..

jz1000, your vehement defence of China is misplaced here. You will find that many many people who post in this forum are passionate about China. Hoping the Chinese people can enjoy more freedom, and censoring your government for their invidious attitudes towards civil and political rights, is hardly attacking the Chinese people.

You seem to only fathom one side of the fair-weathered Chinese story. And to be sure, there are many good stories out there of the Chinese people rising up and becoming successful. Good on them! But your government’s refusal to ratify the ICCPR or justify human rights enshrined in your constitution means that for those who have been wronged by them (the CCP) then can only suffer in silence. No legal redress, no means of seeking justice and even jail for those who upset a party official or jeopardize his career by their complaint. Does this seem fair to you? I’m not comparing with any other country, and if it happened in my country it would be Tiananmen II.
Please read “Medals and Rights” on this website: http://www.thechinadebate.org/en/?p=448

to joshua - July 29th, 2008:
sounds pretty elitist, but in my opinion those who don’t bother or do not have the means to “beat the wall” aren’t smart enough to rationally tackle so much differentiated, distorted, and/or biased information–you should know what I’m talking about after all that false report on Tibet from CNN, Spiegel(the BBC is ok, but still not to many’s likings) and other medias. The result is that they end up in confusion, instead of rallying behind a national cause. I am currently in the UK, but I succeeded in accessing many websites (including wiki) on the basis of “wujie” back in China.
I must again stress the importance of solving China’s problems “from within”. I am sure the government is well aware of the interntional opinion on its human rights records, I am also sure that it is indeed inclined to improving them in the years to come. The agenda of this decade is to create a harmonious society with emphasis on social justice. Human rights will invariably be improved.
Despite minor injustices here and there, there are issues intertwined with human rights and censorship which the international community is not aware of, such as local lycorrupt officials, unregulated drug market, individual riots against reconstruction, a comprehensive strategy against Taiwan. You don’t get to solve all this in a government constantly switching hands. Asking the party to step down is going way too far, and most of all many issues such as tiananmen, human rights, and censorship are attached to it. Since tiananmen was an attack against the legitimacy of the government which is now holding the legacy of Deng, you cant say for sure that China wont reverse to a situation in which(back in the 60’s and 70’s)  government  was in  chaos and  the economy stumbles. Stability is the agenda. And simply adding pressure to the government doesn’t achieve anything. Dialouge is key.
I would  expect to see  an official explanation of tiananmen  in 20-30 years<when the generation of the 70’s and 80’s holds power>.  Now it’s too soon.  Officals will soon know that censorship is not achieving its intended effect(it generates more dissents rather than consents).  This will be settled say, the next few years i suppose.

the hole part of the internet is so that people can look up what they want freely. it was never meant to be a censored thing. it is not fair what china is doing and should be stopped immediatly! this should not happen and I think that china should never hold the olympics again unless they can pull up thier act!

BOTTOM LINE: internet content should be censored only if there is some adult material . criticism has all the right to be there…..if some individuals or parties get offended by it, they can’t block everything just to protect their sentiments…..
and i agree with mbz on tackling problems from within. completely true. i don’t think there is any other way.
and freedom doesn’t come overnight…whether its the cause of censorship or for the tibetans…and thats where i think china’s one party system fails. not like there should be a 100 different parties like in india ( which is worse)…but if there is no scope for change of governemnt , then no scope for change of policy. if that was taken care of, then china could truly enjoy the benefits of progress.
 

Yes, the internet is for ALL to use! There needs to be Internet Safety Education because the Internet is NOT secure!

The internet MUST be for all to use.

“… The web is a great tool for sharing ideas and freedom of expression.
However, efforts to try and control the Internet are growing.
Freedom of expression is a fundamental human right.
It is one of the most precious of all rights.
We should fight to protect it. …”
To know more,
please visit
http://irrepressible.info/pledge

This is Wrong! Google, Microsoft and Yahoo are out of line. Blocking searches of words like freedom just to protect a corrupt government, which blatantly ignores human rights. Giving up details of people who are legitimately using the internet in a peaceful way and in their actions allowing peoples rights to be ignored and causing the imprisonment of innocent people. 

This discussion is now closed.

This website will be revamped, and will not be updated in the meantime. For more information about Amnesty International's work on China, please visit this link.

Thank you for your support.