What human rights legacy for the Beijing Olympic Games?

Being secretive about executions

There is a lack of evidence to support capital punishment as being any more effective a deterrent than other forms of punishment. Despite the worldwide trend towards abolition, the Chinese government remains the world’s biggest user of the death penalty, even for non-violent crimes. The authorities also refuse to publish statistics on executions and sentencing.

Should the authorities keep information about the death penalty secret? What can be done as a first step towards abolition?

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China must be transparent about its use of the death penalty.  It is open to abuse by those in power.  The death penalty does not reduce crime, it turns the state into a killer, and unfairly impacts on family and friends.  It is rarely used against those in power or with wealth - it is the poor and other minorities that suffer.

Information about the use of the death penalty should be public.
If a government holds the belief that capital punishment is effective as a deterrent, it should not be afraid to reveal statistics about its use.
Especially when it is used for non-violent crime, capital punishment starts to sound like a way to cull “unwanted elements” in society.

Besides the issues pointed out before I think it is from great importance that the judicial system is working according to the international norms (e.g. access to a lawyer). Especially because the capital punishment is irreversible, the significance
of a fair trail leaves no doubt.

Very stupid comments from your guys; How many persons here have been in China before ??

Do you understand what is happening in China? only by picture or report from CNN or other medias?

If you want to help China and it’s people,please go to China and to understand his history and reality ; to understand their daily life;
Not just in the internet and writing something which make no sense;

Nothing is perfect in China; However they are changing everyday;

Western socity spend more than 300 years to move from fedual socity to Capitlalism; China is just spending less than 30 years;

Guys ,to be wise and helpful; not just blame;

I think Adrianne is right, everyone should have the right to a lawyer. And Yangyang needs to remember that China is officially communist so he should not even be mentioning capitalism.

Yangyang,
 
 
No one says China should be perfect. No country in the world is perfect. But we should not discourage others from pursuing perfection.  Many who leave comments here aim to help China become better and better.
Although the above commentators may have never lived in China, I did and I did witness its rapid changes. But so what? Accepting its improvement does not mean that we should remain complacent. In fact, I am really annoyed by your attitude (”stop criticizing China because China is improving”), which, as I observe, is shared widely among those who benefit from the recent economic development in China.  I am annoyed because it is precisely this attitude that prevents China from continuing to improve.
 
Yes, China spent less than 30 years to accomplish what it took the West 300 years to finish. Logically, China is also taking the amount of the poison of capitalism that the West spent 300 years to digest.  That means, we need to be all the more conscious and determined to clean up the bad things generated by this fanatic economic development.

Hi Yangyang, I appreciate where you are coming from. People can comment better on an issue when they have as much information about it as possible. Knowing a country from having lived there can give you that. It is also sometimes hard to accept criticism from those outside your country. We all have some kind of national pride. However, I don’t think the other comments in this thread are ’stupid’ - that is unfair. And to criticism the use of capital punishment in China, or the many other countries that still use the death penalty, does not mean to condemn the country as a whole. In my country the government is trying to pass a law to detain people without trial for 42 days. I disagree with this, but there are still great things about where I live. Equally, I protested against my country being part of the invasion of Iraq.
The death penalty is being reformed in China - the government is leading on this and officials within the government and judiciary have stated that their aim is to work towards abolition. It will take time but they are making the first steps. Secrecy surrounding the death penalty means that it is difficult to assess that progress, and to prevent miscarriages of justice.
In most countries where the death penalty has been abolished public opinion has been against it - but the government decided that justice was not served by its use and that it was no more a deterent than other forms of punishment.
I lived in China for a year and it was a great experience - I loved it. I know that peoples motivations to criticize China’s human rights record varies, but I hope that most people would like to see reform in China because it is becoming so important internationally and want to see it as a force for good.

Enter your comment here   YANGYANG If you go to China you will only be allowed to see what they want you to see so you cannot get a fair prospective on what is happening there. If change is happening let it happen for the good of everyone.

Yangyang - I completely understand your point of view.  Western anti-Chinese propaganga is common, and it can be very frustrating for those who appreciate the many great things in China.  I am not Chinese, but have spent much time there and have a great respect for the country. So far I think most of the comments have been pretty sensible though on this thread.
Tonyota - you really need to go to China before you post comments like that! Tourists in China are encouraged to take the route of least resistence and enjoy themselves in government sanctioned places, but they’re not forced to.  I try to avoid those places and have been able to easily, without anyone even suggesting I shouldn’t. I’ve seen many sides of China, and the result has been an unwavering amazement at the resilience of the Chinese people in any situation - positive or negative.
Back to the debate. I completely disagree with the death penalty in any situation, and I know that China executes more people each year than any other country.  It also executes a significantly higher number of people per capita than most other countries, including the USA.  I think its important to point out though that it doesn’t have the highest rate of executions per capita in the world - that is reserved for Iran, Sudan and Iraq.
That’s not to justify China’s capital punishment rate - its horrendous - but to put it into some perspective in the debate.

This is one of my major issue with human rights in China. The number of organs sold from executed criminals is alarming, Malaysia is the only country to survey and found in a year there were close to 1000 malaysians required follow up care from kidney transplants after returning from China! Thats only one country!
World wide peaceful marchs/demonstrations are being organized for the opening ceremonies on Aug 8th click on the link below to learn more a participate!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=722990270#/group.php?gid=4556025949
or you can email me at happybrian[at]rocketmail.com
 
 

Spread the word: turn the TV off for the Opening Ceremony broadcast

To stop death penalty in China is nearly impossible given the reality that there is overwhelmingly vocal support for this in the ordinary folks here.The priority should be to press the authorities to release the figures–how many are sentenced to death and how many are actually executed.Then we may try to reduce the crimes that led to death penalty.However,the hatred for corruption is so high that limiting this penalty to only violent crimes is probably not popular in China.The Westerners should keep this in mind-most of the Chinese do not share their Christian belief in life-eliminating death penalty will take a long time in China.Plus,do not intend to criticize the Chinese authorities on this issue to attr
act Chinese citizens,who usually side with the government at this point.

Besides,it makes no sense to talk about how ineffective the death penalty is to the ordinary folks in China.They do not have the interest or knowledge in learning the analysis that death penalty doesn’t reduce crimes or whatsoever.They would simply adhere to the traditional saying here “a life for a life”.The persuasion that death penalty is unnecessary and ineffective in fact and illegitimate in political/law/philosophical theory is true,but it will take an incredibly long time for the ordinary people to accept the point.So in the short term theoretical lecturing won’t help.

to Tonyota:I’m sorry you are wrong.If you travel to China personally,you would have every chance to know what the hell is going on here if you want to.There are so many foreigners in China that it’s impossible for the authorities to monitor or arrange an individual agenda–unless you are a high-profile/senstivie figure.You can reach every corner in the country,except for some parts of Xinjiang and Tibet.It is true in your comments that the authorities will do whatever they can to showcase their achievements,but that’s through the state-control media.You needn’t worry about your personal trip here.

Something more about it.First,the ordinary people in China overwhelmingly support death penalty.Second,the probable reason that the authorities do not reveal the secrecy about executions is the number is so high that revealing it will draw more criticism.An Chinese expert commented that when the number declined to a certain level that is not too embarassing,the numbers would be made public.Third,the Chinese authorities have in fact taken steps,not fast enough though.The number has already declined evidently according to reports.Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court,Xiao Yang,was reported to admit death penalty philosophically is not right in a conversation with a high-level French official,whose name I forgot.My suggestion is,to press this issue but not so hard.You may try to allocate resources to other places,for example,the Great FireWall of China’s Internet.

Hi, I’m new to this forum and I like the atmosphere here. Folks like you rationalize your opinions, and a lot of different perspectives can be brought out.  I’m from China and I think it’s a pity that the government is blocking this website because of the views it holds. Just two points to make: 1. censorship is the biggest enemy to the improvement of human rights in China (the newer generations including myself are particularly annoyed by this). But as orangeking already mentioned, the government is afraid of drawing more criticism in areas that are already facing a lot of pressure. 2. Adding pressure in sensible areas to the Chinese government may be a bad strategy for Amesty International. First of all, it is not in charge of everything you think it is in charge of-it also faces domestic pressure. In the case of death penalty, as aforementioned, its deeply rooted in society(as also the case in Japan). Secondly,

Secondly, the structual flaws mentioned in the recent report on China’s human rights before the Olympics is something that should be studied and overcomed; crticising based on the structural flaws and the government’s way of behavior doesn’t help much instead of drawing more enemies to the Chinese government and increasing animosity between both sides. The structural flaws in my view include: the criteria for the employment of government officials; the mechanisms for addressing public opinions; the mechanisms for state agencies’ coordination; and the fashion in which party decisions are carried out. One can easily write a book on this  with sufficient research. The media in China has created a atmosphere in which the supremacy of the party and its leaders is a irrefragable fact.
The only way to settle things is to “appeal” to the party officials and inform them of the ways to improve the situation. This is also the traditional way of the Chinese emperor meeting the foreign ambassador. I know this is kind of “condescending” for more developed countries which have a much high GDP/capital than China, but this is the way it works. Lobbying with lower officials might work(but the state is supposed to be free from interference of individualist groups); collaborating with para-government institutions such as the CASS might work(the opinions may easily be addressed to the central government). Vehement criticisms produce negative results and harder cooperation in the future, as it will only draw more patriotic sentiments from the government and the people. So my humble advice to Amesty  International and all other NGOs is to “collaborate” with the government and appeal to its superiors. Right now, the government is doing what IT thinks is the right thing to do to ensure the Olympics is held in due course(including installing the missles and keeping everything in order), and there is hardly anything that can change its course of action. Crticism might work better after that.

this website look pretty cool

Seems the discussion here is about the death penalty following
a criminal trial but what about other State killings?
When did Afghani weddings parties go on trial, be found guilty
and sentenced to be bombed or shelled for instance.
If a Country has laws then the rest of the World should respect those laws. I am not Chinese but spend a lot of time there and
never had any problems. Must say feel safer walking through
Beijing or Shanghai at night than London or New York. If one
does not like whats happening in China then dont go there but
before criticizing get your own Country’s house in order and
take comments from biased organisations such as Amnesty International with a huge pinch of salt. America is just a sad
Nation who if it elects McCain as President will also probably
change the World for the better. Can you imagine him as CinC
(did they get this stuff from a “B”grade movie) charging along
at the head of his forces in a few years in his motorised wheelchair? Probably a good and cheap strategy as the enemy would no doubt die laughing before a shot was fired! Just imagine that on You Tube - freely available in China I’m sure!

To the long run, I do believe death penalty should be abolished but changes are not happen over night. The first thing need to change is not really what government think, but what average people think about this issue,  when still many people do not understand the abolishing of death penalty,  even government want to abolish it, it will not happen,  because the public wont support it. The common reaction would be ‘if serious crime is not punished how can I ensure my security? people to extend see death penalty as warning of serious criminal behavior’, I know this from my personal experience, you do not have to believe in me, the best way to get to know how people think is go to the country and do a scientific survey but not arguing or assuming things!
AI, this kind of survey wont take lots of money if you find a good agent help you, I did a national survey of attitude in the nation, it cost less than 1,000 used !

This is reality, we need educate public first and change takes time. Many nations are still having death penalty, they also facing similar problem, not only China.

On the other side of issue, if government work with AI totally and stopping death penalty by forcing general public, it would be a typical example of abuse of democracy, I don’t think much people would like it.

Those people who think they can changing China dramatically by pressing the government in the name of the game is naive and double- standard in their views on human rights and democracy, why should they want the government force its citizens do things they do not understand and accept (censorship in previous cases, abolishing death penalty in this case)?

To those who really care about the improvement of human rights in the country, please be patient and work with Chinese people.

Learn some eastern wisdom (not necessary China, it can be India), be tolerant.

happy brian, let take what you said as truth for this moment as I havent got time to verify the dat, my question is who is the buyers of those organs? are they in China or oversea? whose demand caused those market? This is the question I am interested. Did any  ever investigated this?  

In animal rights campaign, when we tackle fur, wild life traffic or many other issues, we spend lots of money or engercy in campaign against the cosumming market, we do not only focus on the ‘producer’ of the animal products, because to certain extend those producer are just people who tried to make living on a industry and the market is the ROOT of all evil. If there is no market, those kind of business will no longer exist.

i think the general agreement on all forums is that china needs to be more transparent. i strongly think so too. i’m not saying china has a completely bad record, but i think the death penalty is a little extreme.  orangeking, i’m at a stunning loss for words…how can people support the death penalty? here in india, the death penalty is awarded only to criminals who have committed the most heinous crimes, like a few years ago, the death penalty was awarded to a man acquited in the rape and death of a schoolgirl.  i believe such crimes deserve the death penalty, and if it is used within such reason, why should the governemnt in china be secretive about it, as suggested by reports?

i think hongkong citizen is making a really good point.
and orangeking, if i’m not mistaken, aren’t there local wards in china where every member of the ward is responsible to the leader or something? is that in all sub-urban or urban areas, or where? there is a similar system in india, but only in the rural areas. i’m saying this because it makes it easier to tackle social issues with this system. and if so, could you please explain why the people still support the death penalty?

jamiembrow, you like you thought of percapital,  you said I think its important to point out though that it doesn’t have the highest rate of executions per capita in the world - that is reserved for Iran, Sudan and Iraq.

 JS you are right we need trasparency, I wasnt sure about your data so I caculate by myself, I got the total amount from AI and population from CIA, two independent source from Chinese government,

But the result I find China’s rank is 28!
please dont hesitate to let me know if I make any mistake in the caulation, i did it very quick, so maybe there is mistake
here is stats has higher per capital than China, lets see who is worse than China!

ranking  of all rate
stats
cases
total poulation
rate
new rank

#28  
Bahamas, The:
2
303,770
6.58393E-06
1

#26  
Equatorial Guinea:
3
540,109
5.55443E-06
2

#3  
Saudi Arabia:
143
27,019,731
5.29243E-06
3

#2  
Iran:
317
68,688,433
4.61504E-06
4

#11  
Sierra Leone:
24
6,005,250
3.9965E-06
5

#12  
Rwanda:
24
8,648,248
2.77513E-06
6

#22  
Oman:
6
3,102,229
1.93409E-06
7

#29  
Zimbabwe:
2
1223680
1.63441E-06
8

#5  
Congo, Democratic Republic of the:
100
62,660,551
1.5959E-06
9

#15  
Libya:
9
5,900,754
1.52523E-06
10

#17  
Jordan:
9
5,906,760
1.52368E-06
11

#9  
Taiwan:
32
23,036,087
1.38912E-06
12

#8  
Iraq:
33
26,783,383
1.23211E-06
13

#4  
Pakistan:
135
165,803,560
8.14217E-07
14

#25  
Kyrgyzstan:
4
5,213,898
7.6718E-07
15

#14  
Yemen:
15
21,456,188
6.99099E-07
16

#7  
United States:
42
60,609,153
6.92965E-07
17

#34  
Botswana:
1
1,639,833
6.09818E-07
18

#6  
Egypt:
48
78,887,007
6.08465E-07
19

#24  
Somalia:
5
8,863,338
5.64122E-07
20

#27  
Lebanon:
2
3,874,050
5.16256E-07
21

#13  
Afghanistan:
15
31,056,997
4.82983E-07
22

#20  
Nigeria:
6
13185973.00
4.55029E-07
23

#30  
Singapore:
2
4,492,150
4.45221E-07
24

#23  
Cuba:
5
11,382,820
4.39258E-07
25

#36  
Kuwait:
1
2,418,393
4.13498E-07
26

#19  
Syria:
7
18,881,361
3.70736E-07
27

#1  
China:
470
1,313,973,713
3.57694E-07
28

FYI this it two source of my reference
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_exe-crime-executions_percap
http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/population_2007_0.html

I notice from a link on the first page that AI have published previous years rank on per capitcal basis,

it means AI have the intellgent to understand the importance of per capital caculation, but for the 2007 report, only total rank is aviable, why? 
This report serve nothing but causing the anger towards China and some other nations.

There is no justice, no honesty, no respection for human rights in the report and this campaign.

AI, are you receiving donation from groups with political agenda against Chinese government, or supported by people who has racist bias against Chinese people?

Shame on you AI, we demand you publish a formal for pology for this misleading report!

js, I also dont like death penalty, just like I dont like the euthanasia  of healthy companion animals in many animal sheler around the world, but we can not change it over night! hate or blame do not help, if you want to know why there is still this penatly in this world you should not only ask Chinese, you should also ask people from these country
Bahamas, The:
Equatorial Guinea:
Saudi Arabia:
Iran:
Sierra Leone:
Rwanda:
Oman:
Zimbabwe:
Congo, Democratic Republic of the:
Libya:
Jordan:
Taiwan:
Iraq:
Pakistan:
Kyrgyzstan:
Yemen:
United States:
Botswana:
Egypt:
Somalia:
Lebanon:
Afghanistan:
Nigeria:
Singapore:
Cuba:
Kuwait:
Syria:
China:
Vietnam:
Sudan:
Belarus:
Guatemala:
Japan:
Bangladesh:
Thailand:
Ethiopia:
Indonesia:

Those are all nations performed death penalty 2007 I also got it from the same source.

Stop portrait Chinese as cruel and voilent, the crime rate in China is much lower than many nations, anyone has biase view to Chinese people should go to wikipedia study traditional Chinese value Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism first and then
look at some GOOD stats, numbers don’t lie!

Its very interesting,  I can not find my first post any more, is it deleted? is this so called human rights and free speech? why you accuse the sensor ship of Chinese government but censor your own website at the same time? If this is the case, I do not mind to post the message again. I will include the updated information from AI offical report, so if you want to delete it again please send me email explain why, your project staff K A has my email address.
——————————————————————————–
thinkagainagain - July 30th, 2008 Comment (offensive?)
The Campaign material of AI is unscientific
http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/death-sentences-and-executions-in-2007

AI only caculate the total amount of death penalty and publish a rank on basis of this. 
  
China is the most populous country in the world, roughly 1 in every 5 people in the world is Chinese, so if this country has a average level of execution, it would naturally be found on top of the list. In another words, if the level of execution in China is about average, 1 in 5 people executed should come from China. Just like 1 in 5 people die from traffic accident is from China, 1 in 5 women is from China, 1 in 5 man is from China, 1 in 5 intersex people is from China…China top the list of people die from traffic accident, China top the list of population of woman, China top the list of population of man, China top the list of population of intersex…
 
Do those statements tell people anything at all? No.
 
What should be compare it the amount of execution per capital. Do you have the data? Is China still on the top?
 
I have been working for animal rights on volunteer basis in the last 6 years. I believe the internal value of all sentience beings and I strongly support human rights. But please study more about social science and Math before launching your campaign, or your good intention would be used to stereotype and therefore discriminate one of the largest ethnic group in the world- this is also a form of very serious abuse of human rights.
 
Please quota data scientifically and intelligently. Do more research.
(I am doing an 12nations survey )
————————
Please stop listing a few, or even a hundred, seperate cases. Or put all those distrubing images on your propaganda,  Do you guys watching Criminal Investigation channel? Do you feel those crimes horrible? Will you then draw conclusion based on what you saw on CI that whole nation is bad as that? Of course you will not because you are intellegent, we know WE SHOULD NOT DRAW CONCLUSION based on A FEW CASES, even hundreds cases can means nothing when the total population is as large as 1.3billion, you can easilier catch some bugs if you want.
Instead we should use statistics to have a better understanding of the situation, unfortunetly AI campaign do not have a  good statistic as its support, it lead people to ask, since China is not the top offender, why launch campaign against it, why discriminate this nation? What is the reasons behind this action? I saw people say US has the largest prisoner population per capitcal in the world, if this is true, does this worth attention from anyone or AI at all? If you dismiss it as unimportant, can you please explain why.

Lambo’s comments sound very familiar to me. I know some Western friends, especially male, who failed to make a decent living in their hometowns (including NYC or London) because they could only work as cashiers in Walmart back home went to China to take up much higher positions than they would otherwise get back home. These people, not surprisingly, tend to hold the most favorable view of the Chinese government (and the least favorable view on their own governments) because they are the beneficiary of the income gap between the West and China. They could use their handsome expat salary to buy nice houses, fine dining, and more often than not, beautiful Chinese girls who are constantly and desperately hunting for a foreign passport. My advice to these people (not necessarily including Lambo) is to get out of their cozy expat enclave in showcase cities like Beijing and Shanghai and go to the less developed regions, which make up the majority physical space of China, and check the reality.
 
 
 
 

Forgot to add this: I do not think people here should deviate from the main point of the debate, which is about death penalty. Death penalty is problematic. Showing that other countries commit more death penalties than China or pointing out that showcase cities like Beijing and Shanghai are safer than some quarters in NYC and London does not justify China’s frequent use of summary execution.
 
Two wrongs don’t make a right.

We are simpy here to also connect people to  a Tibetan view from exile at tibetanphotoproject.com
Thank you

Hi All.  I like the comments from the participants here because the majority are not rude and comments are mostly sensible.  Please keep it up.  I am a foreigner residing/working in China.  I do not wish to argue about the effectiveness of the death penalty but I really do feel safer walking through the streets of Beijing and Shanghai as opposed to Manila, London, Munich, just to name a few of the places I’ve been.  On the crime prevention front, I think it has worked pretty well in China.  As for executions because of dissent or politically-motivated, I think watchdog organisations have to come up with more solid evidence before accusing the Chinese government of these.  I believe there are many wrongful executions in China at the local level but that is due largely to corrupt local governance.  The Chinese central government is easily the best one in its short 50-year history.  They are trying as many things as they can to keep local governments in check but please understand it is a big country and the most populous one.  They need time.

this very debate is just a manifest of western chauvinism — why shall the Chinese follow the our standards on domestic issues? Not to mention that we can’t even live up to most of these standards that we use to judge China.  Utill we figured out why we still have dealth penalty in our legal system, we shall keep our mouth shut.

I am glad to see some intellegent new comments, AI and some so called human rights groups, please stop fool the public by your money oriented campaign, I was so deeply involved in advocacy movement, so I know well about what is happening in some international organization.

please tell the truth!

Like this case, for very long AI campaign has been single China out without sufficent evidence. it either focus on portait a few cases or based on total amount of any issues. Those method ignored the big picture in the country and is unscientific and biased.

Some may say, AI targets to Chinese government, but not Chinese people,  this view is as naive as 3 years Child.  It means they know nothing about China.

The government is consisted of officers, those officers are Chinese people, they have family they have friends they have contacts throughout the country, you can not seperate the government from Chinese people, do you think Chinese government is that such a bad ruly class hung over the public? If this is the case, there would already be another revolution! The government is improving on the day to day basis, Chinese history is very different from west, it take time for people to experiment which is the right direction. As a matter of fact, even on those most accused historical issues, such as cultural revolution or the unrest of 1989,  there ARE divided opinions within the Party, many key people involved in those historical issue has already gone, and there are alway good officers have dedicate their life to help the people since 1949. 

Diversity in China is an important fact, Some western scholar believe there may be as many as 100 ethinic groups if caculates on western standard, many people accuse China including AI completely do not aware the complexity within this country is to such a great extend and has judge China merely based on the stereotypic image they herited from the propoganda of cold war.

When groups like AI run negative campaign against China in particular when they taking adventage of public event like Olympic, it not only hurts the goverment, hurts the images of China,  it also hurts every one in the country.  
—————————–
1) AI are most well know on accusing China without scientific evidence
2) People from China account for 20% of world population
For what you have done in the past, AI you are undoubtly world largest propoganda machines of ethnic discrimination.
—————————–
What a shame, as a ‘human rights’ group, you commited one of the most serious offence to human rights on this planet! 

This remind me the forced cultural assimilation posed on many aboriginal/native people in the different parts of the world.

If AI want to continue muddle the fingers in the country, I have recommandation for your team members, please do like many westerns , go to the country, study the language, the history and the culture and perform scientific research before you launch any campaign. I been living in this country for more than twenty years, but yet, I can not say I have known enough about it.

Thank you Hongkongcitizen but afraid youre wrong on most counts. I am retired but in my time I was fortunate to head up,
the very top, work and live in London, NewYork, Australia, Tokyo and would you believe Hong Kong - May Towers. During my working life I wasnt allowed into mainland China because I had a particular connection with Taiwan and its Government. Yes I earned and I mean” earned” a large salary but never had a girl friend in Hong Kong and must say never heard from any of my expat staff that the girls there were particularly keen on getting a foreign passport! Anyway the end result is I have never worked in China, do visit the place regularly now as obviously I have now been forgiven for past indiscretions dont particularly like Beijing but find Shanghai interesting. I live some part of each year in Xiamen and stick with my original comment. If you are Hong Kong Chinese I trust you will show a little more respect as I guarantee I am much older . dare I say wiser, than you.
regards.

Hi pudongite, I would not attribute death penalty as the only cause of the safer chinese cities, I think its non-violence and ’baring the bitterness’(reng3) is rooted in the culture and 5000 years history. 

@ TibetVideos: i don’t think that a discussion on the death penalty and human rights, which are universal, is a manifestation of “western chauvinism”. one example: last year the un general assembly adopted a resolution for a global moratorium on executions. plus, the “we” is not adequate for referring to the west. in europe and north america, all countries except for belarus and the usa have abolished the death penalty.  if we believe amnesty, 137 countries worldwide have abolished the death penalty in law or practice, and only 60 retain it.
@ thinkagainagain: i looked the ai site that you referred to and it says: “In 2007, 470 executions were recorded by Amnesty International, but this number is based on public reports available and serves as an absolute minimum. The US-based organization “Dui Hua Foundation” estimates that 6,000 people were executed last year based on figures obtained from local officials. In a country as vast as China with tight government controls on information and the media, only the authorities know the reality behind the use of the death penalty.”  if you take the 6,000 estimate as a basis for the per capita calculation, china would be ranked much higher.  (if i did the math correctly, it would in fifth place) in any case, such statistics are not very reliable anyway, as long as china doesn’t publish official figures.
i don’t like this numbers game, though. all it does is distract from the central issue: that human beings are killed by the state, and that this is wrong - no matter if thousands or only two people are executed.
 

many participants here use the comparison between street safety in Beijing and Shanghai and that in London, New York, Manila, etc. to suggest/hint that it is death penalty that does the work. To me, this argument is fallacious for two reasons.
 
First, I wonder if those who make this kind of comparison have ever been to Hong Kong, which is no less safe (in my opinions, actually safer) than Beijing and London. *Hong Kong has abolished death penalty.* “But Hong Kong is much richer than Beijing and Shanghai,” some of you may counter-argue. Yes, this is true, but then Hong Kong is no more richer than London and New York. This simple comparison indicates that whether you feel safe walking through the streets of a city has little to do with how rich the city is, and more importantly, whether it has death penalty or not.
Second, I wonder if those who make the comments have been to other cities in China, like Shenzhen and Guangzhou, to name just a few. As a Hong Kong person who has been to these places and has friends traveling and residing in these places, I have personally experienced and heard lots of crazy stories about robberies and rapes. Indeed, few in Hong Kong would feel that China is safer than Hong Kong.
 
 
With the above two reasons, one should see that the causal argument that death penalty brings safety to streets does not stand. I agree that Beijing and Shanghai are relatively safer comparing to some cities in the West. But there are other factors than death penalty that makes that happen. Also, is street safety that important to begin with? I am sure Pyongyang and Tehran are safe cities, too. Why don’t you guys move there?
 
 
 
 
 

thinkthinkagain, i don’t hate the chinese people. i’m not biased or anything, i just think that their governemnt needs to make a few policy changes. i’ve been studying chinese human rights for a few years now, i’ve done my own personal research. i got hooked on to the topic because of a few tibetans that i know. the city that i live in , in india, has many tibetans. i’m not blaming china, i just disagree with some things their GOVERNMENT does. its not like i hate their guts or anything, i don;t. if i sound a little extreme, it’s only because i feel strongly about certain issues. (including animal slaughter, incidentally)i’m a sort of buddhist myself, and FYI, buddhism came from india, not china.
i don’t know if the crime rate is low in mainland china, but i i’m not mistaken, its pretty  low in hongkong. maybe not right now, because of rising inflation.
anyway, i’m digressing. the point is that each country should accept that they have their own flaws and should work towards making it better, not deny it. i’m sure china would be appreciated hugely by the global community if it did more for human rights. there is always room for improvement. as i see it, this is exactly like the period before the cultural revolution, although i certainly do not hope there is another tianamen incident. china and the world cannot afford to have that right now. so they need to make the necessary reforms before it is too late.
i’m not saying there aren’t countries with no human rigbts violation at all, but this discussion is about china, isn’t it?

the obstacle

«First of all, there’s no need to be overly pessimistic about the future of democracy in China. It’s only been seven decades since the May Fourth Movement began, compared to the three centuries that it took for science to be accepted, so there’s no call for complete despair.

Second, the basic principles and standards of modernization and democratization are like those of science — universally applicable. In this regard there’s no Eastern or Western standard, only the difference between ‘backward’ and ‘advanced’, between ‘correct’ and ‘mistaken’.

Third, the chief obstacle to the modernization and democratization of Chinese culture lies in the same erroneous idea that kept science out of China for so many years: the theory of China’s ‘unique characteristics’, in all its variations.»

Fang Lizhi, April 1989
oTópico
Ps.: I would like to offer these words to that guy who thinks he is thinking twice, but has not even started.
mpv

hello js, one of my good friend and collegues is from India, my friends surname is Ganguli, I admire traditional indian culture, religion value I have been study quiet a lot of it, I always love to talk with my friend about this kind of things, Its truly a widsom of human civilization, as you say about vegetarianms is such a wonderful idea, I have no disagreement with you on those topic. but I also know from my friend the british has deep influence on Indan, almost every Indian speaking, and I can see to certain extend, some people see associate with west world as some kind of pride. Please note, the information you based on to  judge China is mainly original from English speaking world. If you know Chinese as language good as you English, I am SURE you will have different opinins on those issues. Wikipedia can see as a place of free speech, if you check the Chinese page on thos sensitive issues, such as 1989 or tibat, you will see lots more information you never heard in english speaking world, and you will be so suprised by what you have seen. Now many website provide automatic translation service, like google, you can use these tool to read those Chinese pages, please remember wikipedia is mainly written by people outside China as people say CN government censor it. You do not have to trust Chinese government, but you can put more bet on wikipedia

I am not going to repeating those information on wikipedia, but just want to make an example, before communist party enter tibet, when it under dalai lama , there is an SLAVERY class in their society,  SLAVE! what does this mean, and the religious leader was the head of this kind of soceity, is this so called human rights or love and peace? but have you ever heard this piece of very important information in the english world before?  please verify it yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_classes_of_Tibet

just like this case, China is not so bad on this issue at all,  but they make people feel this way, they list China on the top,  they can lie on these issues, they can lie on other pass issues.

Be critical about anything what you have heard about China in the past, in the time when free speech are less possible than the internet age,  there are much more room for people to distort the truth.

You are also only given the information someone want to give you, You human rights is also undermined by those propoganda machine.

We should find truth by ourselves, Internet provid people an oppotinity to search truth, please make the best use of it. If we want to know the truth, we need to listen voice from two side!

I never say China is perfect, and I am fully aware this problem, I have been send quiet a lot suggestion book/letter to the government tell them how to improve. if you read my previous post carefully, you will know my position.

My key focus here is pointing out the ethinic discrimination behind all these campaign.

wall_b - August  how do you know Pyongyang and Tehran are safe cities (because of the authrority control, this is your underlining meaning)

Have you been there? do you know people from there? have you done scientific research about the security? I know a few Iranian. be critical about anything you heard about these two nations, there are lies to. I know certain media images about Iran is lie.

“You are not ashamed to be the guest of a traitor to his country?”

“I don’t think you were a traitor to the human race.”

“The human race is unimportant. It is the self that must not be betrayed.”

“I suppose one could say that Hitler didn’t betray his self.”

“You are right. He did not. But millions of Germans did betray their selves. That was the tradgedy. Not that one man had the courage to be evil. But that millions had not the courage to be good.”

From ‘The Magus’ by John Fowles

thanks hobbes for extend my ‘number game’ giving further information, in consideration the political interests, I think its fair to say the data you provide as the up limit of the situation, and mine as the bottom limit, so we have an confidence interval of the real situation now.

But it only tell onething, China are not worse, but China is portaited as top offender put on the top of the list, this is the very definition of discrimination!

thinkagainagain, you are exactly right!!!!! this is my point!!! one should use a little bit more scientific comparison to back up his view for or against death penalty. using two showcase cities, Beijing and Shanghai, to argue that death penalty helps contain crimes is fallacious. 
by the way, if pyongyang and tehran are not safe, that further confirms my point that death penalty is unable to make you feel safe walking through the streets.  

i think the attempt to use statistical data to show that China is not the champion on the death penalty ranking is funny. it’s like saying that the Holocaust was not that bad and we therefore should not “discriminate” against the Nazi because there were many more genocides of a larger scale in human history.
 
i think that the Chinese gov is improving. But pushing it harder and recognizing that it’s improving are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary, that it’s improving is likely because there are NGOs like the Amnesty that pushes it hard.

I understand peoples’ reasoning that nobody is perfect and fair enough- China has only been concentrating on rights etc. for 30 years and western europe has taken 300 yrs to get to the point where we all stab each other- in england at least.

But why make excuses?

Why dont we stand up and say that capital punishment is wrong and put some measures to protect the most essential right for ALL humans- the right to life.

I think if your loved ones were on death row in china you would be slightly less forgiving of chinese authorites.

Lets stop this now.

When discussing social politics, one should not focus only on the national implications. Since China is worlds biggest country  with regard to its total population, we shouldnt see its efforts to improve human rights in a national context only. The realisation of human rights in china would have a strong impact on  the worlds overall self-conception on topics like free-speech and legal rights…
I dont care whether China or any other country in world didnt have the “proper” time to reach democratic conditions. In any case China managed to adapt to our financial structures. If china is so eager to expand its economy and cultural values it should not try to reach this with an antiquated social system.
Fair enough, western societies are for from beeing perfect in sense if state repression but we still got some room for subversive social approaches which imo. are vital to a countrys progressiveness.

Thanks moderator for releasing some of my posts, please also release those posts about cultrual peace group

Restate my points
1. I support abolishing death pentaly by a progressive approach
2. I see scientific research as the only method to understand the situation in any nation
3. I totally oppose to rights campaign like this  without a solid evidence and scientific research as its support

wall_b - Augus, I agree with you totally, since neither you and me and AI and any rights group has performed conclusive research on those topic, we should say, we do know much about this issue. 

If we dont know much, we should say we dont know much, this is honesty, we should not run a campaign when we dont really know much at the issues at all.

AI please dont using prejudice as your evidence.

Don’t say by falsefy the fact you attract more attention on the issue, therefore improving human rights, the truth is the ethinic discrimination you caused by this negative campaign has greatly over weighted the little positive influence you might have on those rights issues. Over all you are doing more bad than good to the world.

Because your biased campaign and unjustice method, taking advantage of the game, The largest anti-oversea biased website anti-cnn.com  (a household name in China)  has open a special column on its homepage to exposure all lies and unjustice you have done to China.
http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/forum-54-1.html

Now AI has become a very negative name for many Chinese people in different levels, 20% world population do not endose you as a organization with good intention, and I know from research there are much more ethinic group in different nations oppose your interference of their domestic issues in the name of human rights.

How can you continue claim you are an INTERNATIONAL organization?

Do you have representative from all those nations you work with? Learn something from UN, otherwise, don’t call yourself INTERNATIONAL.

AI you are the biggest loser in this anti Olympic campaign.

wall_b - August 3rd, you said

 
i think the attempt to use statistical data to show that China is not the champion on the death penalty ranking is funny. it’s like saying that the Holocaust was not that bad and we therefore should not “discriminate” against the Nazi because there were many more genocides of a larger scale in human history.
—————————
Are you drawing parallel between those country rank before China (number of nations range from 4 to 27, for completed list of name of those countries please see my previous post, including some developed country) to those many large scale of genocide in human history?

If this is your intention,  I personally have no disagreement with your above statment, but I am afriad people from those countries may not agree with you.

panda thank you for your kindness, if you loved one is discrimated on the false report of his/her ethinic group like this on the day to day basis,  you would be slightly less forgiving for Amnesty International and other rights group. 

I saw oversea Chinese post comments on youtube, they are given name like ‘red guards’ and other unfriendly title by people just because of their ethinic connection with China. 

thinkagainagain, i am drawing a parallel between your “attempt to use statistical data to show that China…” and the attempt to “saying that the Holocaust was not that bad…”
 
 
can you understand? it’s ATTEMPTS.
 
To explain it more explicitly, in case you still do not understand, I am saying that one should not use other’s fault (like “other countries also have (more) death penalties” and “other countries also staged genocides”) to justify one’s fault. Have you read the stuff written by LuXun, one of the greatest Chinese writers in the 20th century?  This kind of irresponsible attitude (use other’s fault to justify one own’s) is precisely what LuXun attacks. Sadly, to this day, 80 years after LuXun died, many Chinese still hold this kind of attitude.

wall_b - August, I am glad you realized your paralle was not approperiate, therefore your conclusion was not approperiate too.

put this simple, I am doing research and work on social advocacy in the international level, I am fully aware the needs of social changes and know better on how to make the changes.

 Not only there is needs of improvment of rights in China, most importantly, those organization like ‘Amnesty A- Few- National’ also need to learn to enbraced the multicultural globle village and respect to the history and reality faced by many different ethinic group they target to.

I have clear attitude on issues of death penatlty, I wrote a long post before yours, but AI did not allowed that post to be published. below are some part of that censored post

—————————–
Restate my points,

1) I support abolishing death pentaly by a progressive approach
2) I see scientific research as the only method to understand the situation in any nation
3) I totally oppose to rights campaign like this without a solid evidence and scientific research as its support

wall_b - Augus, I agree with you totally, since neither you nor me nor AI , any rights group has performed conclusive research on those topic, we should say, we don’t know much about this issue.

If we don’t know much, we should say we don’t know much, this is honesty, we should not run a campaign when we don’t really know much at the issues at all.

http://culturalpeace.blogspot.com/

Several people have questioned why we are focusing on China, when other countries have sketchy human rights records as well. That’s easy; China is hosting the Olympics, and, to do so, made certain promises to the International Olympic Committee.  It will be interesting to see if Amnesty International (of which I am a student member) forms special committees to address issues with Canada (2010 Winter games, no death penalty in Canada), Great Britain (2012 Summer games, no death penalty in EU), Russia (2014 Winter games, current moritorium on death penalty, although it is still on the books), and whichever country gets the 2016 Summer games (Chicago, USA, is bidding; death penalty is by state).

thinkagainagain, when did i realize/acknowledge that my comparison (or parallel) was inappropriate? please do not misrepresent my message (or in your wording, if you do not understand my message, you should say you do not understand, not putting your imagined words in my mouth. this is honesty).
 
 
to put it more explicitly, in case you still do not understand, i think my comparison was very APPROPRIATE. my main message is to criticize your attempt of using the fact that China is not the champion on the death penalty per capita ranking to justify its extensive use of summary execution. period.
 
u said “I agree with you totally.” does this include my criticism against your above attempt?
 
 
you hint that AI is not using a “scientific approach” in the research on China (specifically related to death penalty). but you have not raised any evidence except that China is not on the top of the death penalty per capita ranking. Let me use the APPROPRIATE comparison again; your criticism against AI is analogous to saying that blaming the Nazi is unscientific because the Holocaust was not the worst genocide in history.
 

one more point: i agree that if we do not know much, then we should say we do not know much.
 
 
but before you claim that AI does not know much about China’s death penalty problems, you should show how much you know about AI and how much more you know about China’s death penalty situation than AI. so far from what you said, I do not see any evidence.
 
 
if you do not know how much AI does not know, then you should say it.
 
this is honesty.

I have delivered most of my views on this issue by now, although some posts are still censored by AI.

My posts are writen for those who want to know the truth, for those who have read and been thinking, I thank you

My posts are not for those who is already blinded by prejudice
or those who see debate as a virtual war.

To those lack of acadamic experience, let me tell you little bit more about why people need debate,

it is not a verbal alternative of physical fight, It is a clever method to gather the knowelage and brian power of many people.

The goal of debate is not putting down the opponent, the goal is getting close to the truth by the information/thoughts from many others.

lets join many others around world watch Olympic tommorrow! 
Chinese protest against  AI campaign biase will continue.

I support think againagain. I have nothing to add except condemn whoever removed his/her post (either administratively or by hacking). And just a minor point: youtube also erases discussions on posts that are too “hot”. Who says western media is not sanctioned?

an important part of academic debate is defining important terms. what is your definition of a “virtual war?”
 
 
I do not know about the others. But for me, the reason that i engaged in this discussion with you thinkagainagain is to seek truth, not to wage a “war” (virtual or not). My seemingly aggressive attitude may have scared you, but I have a reason for that.
 
 
There are many ways to seek truth, but being evasive is not one of them. Because I want to seek truth and want to know how unscientific AI has been when dealing with the death penalty problems in China, this is why I press you hard for clarification. Unfortunately, you failed to confront my questions (including: can you show how you know more about the death penalty situation in China than AI? and how do you know that AI does not know (or lack the knowledge) about the death penalty situation in China?).
 
I agree that the goal of debates is not “putting down the opponent, ” but I believe that the goal of any debate is to put down the opponent’s arguments. This is what I have been trying to do. For what? For seeking the truth.
 
For the sake of academic exchanges, for the sake of debate, for the sake of seeking the truth, and for the sake of being CHINESE (many of who, unfortunately, lack the guts to face inconvenient truth about themselves and many of who have a habit of using evasive language to gloss over the poverty of their arguments), could you please give evidence to support your accusation against AI?
 
 
For those who may have missed my previous posts, I want to reiterate the fact that I am Chinese and am proud of my culture and history. An additional reason that I want to engage in this debate is to show that there are Chinese who have the courage to face and accept criticisms, and the courage to debate with scientific rigor.
 

mbz,
 
 
1. who said that the Western media does not sanction? if you used to believe so, all I can say is that you were too naive.
2. that some sort of censorship exists in the Western media does not justify the extensive use of media censorship in China.
again, why are there so many people like to use the excuse “you also have the same problem” to justify one’s own problem?
 
 
pathetic.

thinkagainagain - did you read the Guidelines? It clearly says that the forum will be pre-moderated. If you didn’t flout the rules, your posts would not be held back. And going by how some stimulating some posts have been, there doesn’t seem to be editing of original threads except when they get too long.

Well, I live in the UK and support the death penalty whole heartedly. If the Chinese have executed 6000 criminals in 2007 then thats 6000 less criminals to deal with in 2008, no arguments.
The Chinese government should just come out and say “Yes, we did execute 6000 criminals last year, so what?” the world’s response would be minimal, a few column inches, nothing more.

I think the number of executions should be official.  I believe the death penalty still exists muchly because of the cost for prisoners. The chinese state rather pay for bullets than for a re-educational prison experience. One only gets one chance. In a nation so big and with such enormous population the PRC can’t afford one mistake.

I am a chinese,  I would not love to see anyone with a death penalty, however people whom have done extreme crimes do deserve punishment! A lot people attack chinese government but u are not the ones who is living there, with 1.4 billion people need to be managed day by day, it is easy say than done.  

Also it is not the fact chinese government just give the death penalty to whoever they like, it is the fact people whom have done bad things, cops don’t just go on street and arrest peopIe! it is only to do with the people whom really deserve it, is that really wrong? 

Sometimes I think if u r not in that person’s shoes, u would never understand. A lot people leave comments here about china without been to china or even talk to chinese, just because have watched some twisted news on tv, they think they just have the rights to  say thing it is it is just crazy!!

I do admite China is not perfect, however we only got independent since 1949.  only 50 years independence, with a 5,000 years history behind it, it can be struggle to change certain rules such as death penality. reason being we have death penaltiy I think it stated into books back thousands years ago,  chinese culture is about loyality, respect,  useful to the socity,  and the culutre it is such be part of our life, noone can change that overnight. if u can’t expect any country to do that, why u atacking us then?

China’s policy is not perfect, but it has changed so much from the last 50 years, we have so many amazing achievements in the world, and noone is seeing that, we are still learning,  and trying to improve ourselves! why people just cant give us a chance, instead of communicate, u just have to promote attackings to china, if u say u r doing this is for the chinese human rights, it is not true, we appricate critisim but not attack! 

we know we still have issues, have problems, but we need time! we r changing, we r learning, u can’t see it if u don’t know what is understanding, u have no compassions!

thinkthinkagain:
 
i don’t get my information mainly from wikipedia…..im a linguist, i speak a few languages like japanese, german, french and a little bit of chinese…so i got a translator long ago…..so language is not a problem at all , nor do i have a bias against using information given in chinese, whether it goes against what i say or not.
do you know of a perfect society? please tell me if you do, because as far as i know, its a hypothetical situation…it will never happen. what i’m trying to say is that EVERYTHING has its ups and downs….so did the tibetan society under the lamas. but did that justify the invasion? i don’t think anything can. and as i jhave mentioned on one of my other posts, china’s claim on tibet was ‘cultural unification’. well, their society is based on buddhism and buddhism came from india…..what cultural unity is that?
the bottom line is that ( i might sound very idealistic, well i’m still in high school so thats really not my fault) i don’t think anybody has the right to take away life and dignity from somebody else. china’s best shot is to live and let live…if there really is progress, no doubt there is economic progress, then the people should be happy. but i guess everybody here knows about the countless number of incidents where the chinese citizens themselves have displayed their unhappiness with the government..tianamen being a timeless example. unless the people are happy, there isn’t any point in displaying large GDP figures. i don’t think anything can justify secrecy regarding human rights.

hello js, your information confirmed you have almost no DIRECT access to Chinese literature. 

it make a big difference on tibet issue when there were slaves in the society, it could be liberation of peoplle but not invasion, plus, many evidence show tibet are part of China for centuries, please watch this video
A westerner’s View of Tibet Issue and China 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0ZKU7k5ZeI

please listen voice from two sides 

joshua
yes, i read the guidline, yes i know is pre moderated, thats why I knew everytime when I critised AI on sensitive issues, I get my post held much longer, some even not allowed to be published.

yes, this guidline is very interesting it show AI has finial say over what people can publish here
interesting lines from the policy
1)’We may revise this Policy at any time by amending this page. You are expected to check this page from time to time to take notice of any changes we make as they are legally binding on you..
2) ’we cannot guarantee that all comments submitted will be published’

Free Speech!

Listening , insightful point, and I would like to add one thing,  death penalty is not the only issue of human rights, all those future hosts have certain human rights issues, like the rights of native people, racial equality, Let see what AI will do.

No because we all have the right to know the truth no matter what! Secrets will get out eventually, so don’t lie to begin with! The sooner the better.

thinkagainagain,
existence of pre-moderation = no free speech?
you cracked me up again. it’s like saying that governments in the West are politically repressive because there are police.  maintaining law and order to a certain degree is similar to political repression because both require some sort of coercion on the part of the state. but few would confuse the two (except for the Chinese government who sometimes identifies democracy with anarchy).
 
 
thinkagainagain, you can continuously resort to this kind of attack-the-straw-man argument to justify your position (or the Chinese govenrment’s position). but you will not convince the others.

It is vitally important that the Chinese government release information on executions for one logical reason.  One of the justifications for keeping the death penalty is that it acts as a deterrent.  If executions are not publicised, then it is not efficient as a deterrent, so is totally useless.  In this way, if they wish to retain the death penalty, the Chinese government are making a logical error in keeping it low profile.
In terms of abolition, it is exceptionally difficult to introduce techniques such as a trial period, since it would be grossly unfair to people convicted just outside the trial period.  The only solution would seem to be an absolute abolition of the death penalty.  The Chinese government could reintroduce it (heaven forbid) if violent crime rose substantially.

thanks for providing the video link thinkthinkagain, i saw it. i do have an open mind, but:
are you saying that the tibetans are also brainwashed by the western media? have they not been in china themselves>?
and yes, china is a pretty good country which, like all other countries, isn’t perfect, but if the people are happy, then why do thousands of refugees cross over and come into india every year? and are you saying that there is nobody on this side of the world that doesn’t think tibet should be free? or isn’t anti-china?
and whether tibet was part of china after the 1950’s or before that or whenever, i think it is a fact that it was annexed, whenever it became a part of china. because there are refernces proving that tibet was an independent country at some point of time. don’t be biased, there is an article on the friends of tibet website that i think you may find in agreement with my statement.
the link is:
http://www.friendsoftibet.org/articles/china.html

” … No matter what reason
a government gives for executing prisoners
and what method of execution is used,
the death penalty cannot be separated
from the issue of human rights.
The movement for abolition
cannot be separated
from the movement for human rights.
The Universal Declaration recognizes
each person’s right to life
and categorically states further
that “No one shall be subjected to torture
or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment”.
In Amnesty International’s view
the death penalty violates these rights.
Self-defence may be held to justify, in some cases,
the taking of life by state officials: for example,
when a country is locked in warfare (international or civil)
or when law-enforcement officials must act immediately
to save their own lives or those of others.
Even in such situations the use of lethal force
is surrounded by internationally accepted legal safeguards
to inhibit abuse.
This use of force is aimed
at countering the immediate damage
resulting from force used by others.
The death penalty, however,
is not an act of self-defence
against an immediate threat to life.
It is the premeditated killing
of a prisoner
who could be dealt with equally well
by less harsh means.
There can never be a justification for torture
or for cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment.
The cruelty of the death penalty is evident.
Like torture,
an execution constitutes
an extreme physical and mental assault
on a person already rendered helpless
by government authorities. … ”

To understand clearly,
please read more at
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ACT51/002/2007/en/dom-ACT510022007en.html

” … We are not so mad as to think
that we shall create a world
in which murder will not occur.
We are fighting for a world
in which murder will no longer be legal. … ”

[Sources: http://freenet-homepage.de/dpinfo/newquotes.htm
http://www.amnestyusa.org/events/agm/agm2003/biancajagger.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus]

” … Murder and capital punishment
are not opposites
that cancel one another,
but similars
that breed their kind.
Crime is only the retail department
of what, in wholesale,
we call penal law. … ”

[Please read about George Bernard Shaw at
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1925/shaw-bio.html]

On 18th December, 2007,
the ‘General Assembly’
of the ‘United Nations’
endorsed the decision
on the worldwide moratorium
(suspension / halt)
on the use
of the death penalty
in a plenary session
through securing
a landmark victory
for the global campaign
against the death penalty!
Earlier the resolution
had been adopted
on 15th November, 2007,
by the ‘3rd Committee’
at the ‘General Assembly’
of the ‘United Nations’.
The resolution restates
the growing international trend
towards worldwide abolition
(as 137 countries
have already abolished the death penalty
in law or practice)
and call on states,
which still use the death penalty
to establish a moratorium on executions.
To know more,
please visit
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/un-calls-halt-executions-20071218
http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty

” … “This is a historic moment … …
With this resolution,
we will be in a position
to challenge our government
and to request a further commitment
towards the effective abolition of the death penalty”.

The UNGA resolution,
which was supported by 104 member states,
is a clear indication
that the worldwide trend
towards abolition of the death penalty
is now becoming irreversible. … …

The World Coalition Against the Death Penalty
calls on all member states of the United Nations
to follow the recommendation of the resolution
and apply a formal moratorium on executions,
with a view to abolishing the death penalty.

Governments continuing to execute death row convicts
will now be acting against the will
of the majority of the world’s countries. … …”

[Please read more at
http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=38&sel_lang=english]

” … A World Coalition delegation found the door closed on June 16 when they attempted to handover to the Chinese Liaison Office in Hong Kong a petition urging for changes in the death penalty system in China.
Stopped at the outside door of the building, it was refused the chance to be met by any official on the explanation that ‘this is a political issue’. … ” [Source: <a href=”http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=287&keywords=china+chinese

” … Death penalty remains a particular concern in China, where thousands of people continue to be sentenced to death and executed each year, often after hasty and unfair trial. … ” [Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=287&keywords=china+chinese]

” … The petition, calling for the lift of state secrecy on the practice of the death penalty and a moratorium on executions, was signed by 256,457 persons from all around the world.
Earlier in the morning, the WCADP held a press conference in Hong Kong to present its demands and compare the death penalty situation in China with global trends in Asia and the rest of the world. … ” [Source: <a href=”http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=287&keywor

Enter your comment here” … “We ask for China to make transparency part of its death penalty”, said Speedy Rice, an American law professor talking on behalf of the World Coalition. “We hope that through a polite and transparent dialogue, China will restrict the number of crimes eligible for death, afford greater legal protection for the accused and, ultimately, respect its public statement at the United Nations Human Rights Council that China will one day end its use of the death pena

” … Abolition is possible in China as it is in the rest of the world. Emily Lau, member of the Hong Kong Legislative Council, reminded that Hong Kong has abolished the death penalty in 1993 and that the crime rate has been decreasing in the past ten years. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=287&keywords=china+chinese]

” … Changes in China would have a great impact on the rest of the world and especially in Asia” said Maiko Tagusari, a lawyer from Japan and member of the Anti Death Penalty Asia Network (ADPAN). She spoke after a two-day meeting of the ADPAN network clearly indicated that the momentum towards abolition is growing in the region. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/mod

” … The press conference had opened with a video message from Robert Badinter, French Senator, former Minister of Justice and former member of the Ethics Commission of the International Olympic Committee. He insisted that executions that would take place in China or elsewhere in the world during the Olympic Games would offend the integrity of human beings, which is the very principle of the Olympic spirit. … ”
[Source: <a href=”http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.p

” … It is not easy to be a defence lawyer in China. There is no independence of the judiciary. In serious cases, the judge is not free to pronounce the sentence and must obey orders from higher courts or Communist Party leaders. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=260]

” … In some cases, we find evidence that the accused is innocent. For example, four defendants were accused of a crime committed in Le Ping City, Jiang Xi province, in 2001. They had no connection with the crime and two of them were not even in the city. The prosecution had no evidence except oral testimony obtained under torture. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?

” … I wrote articles on websites, formed a lawyers’ group, sent a report to the Supreme Court and organised a symposium in Beijing in 2007 to discuss the case. There are similar cases in other provinces. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=260]

” … Most lawyers involved in these cases are human rights lawyers: they defend journalists, writers, etc. But many do not have an opinion on the death penalty. They have never been asked if it should be abolished. … ”
[Source: http://www.worldcoalition.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=260]

It will never be okay to kill or execute someone before they have been by an impartial judge who have looked at their case but what agenteighty says is right in someway but the still they should have a lawyer.

This discussion is now closed.

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